Remember the Frito Bandito? (Voiced by Mel Blanc)
Cultural appropriation is a broad enough term to functionally be meaningless, but I’ve found it helpful to think through 4 distinct interests at play, that I think are legitimate:
Proper attribution/credit. We don’t like plagiarism or unattributed copying in most art. Remixes, homages, reinterpretations, and even satire/parody are acceptable but we expect proper treatment of the original author and the original work. Some accusations of cultural appropriation take on this flavor, where there’s a perceived unfairness in how the originator of an idea is ignored and some copier is given credit. For a real world example of this, think of the times the fans of a particular musical artist get annoyed when a cover of one of that artist’s song becomes bigger than the original.
Proper labeling/consumer disclosure/trademark. Some people don’t like taking an established name and applying it outside of that original context. European nations can be pretty aggressive at preserving the names of certain wines (champagne versus sparkling wine) or cheeses (parmigiano reggiano versus parmesan) or other products. American producers are less aggressive about those types of geographic protected labels but have a much more aggressive system of trademarks generally: Coca Cola, Nike, Starbucks. In a sense, there’s literal ownership of a name and the owner should be entitled to decide what does or doesn’t get the label.
Cheapening of something special or disrespect for something sacred. For certain types of ceremonial clothing, wearing that clothing outside of the context of that ceremony seems disrespectful. Military types sometimes get offended by stolen valor when people wear ranks/ribbons/uniforms they haven’t personally earned, and want to gatekeep who gets to wear those things. In Wedding Crashers there’s a scene where Will Ferrell puts on a fake purple heart to try to get laid, and it’s widely understood by the audience to be a scummy move. Or, one could imagine the backlash if someone were to host some kind of drinking contest styled after some Christian communion rituals, complete with a host wearing stuff that looks like clergy attire.
Mockery of a group. Blackface, fake accents, and things of that nature are often in bad taste when used to mock people. It’s hard to pull this off without a lot of people catching strays, so it’s best to just avoid these practices. With costumes in general, there are things to look out for, especially if you’re going out and getting smashed.
This is probably the best most level-headed and respectful take I’ve seen regarding cultural appropriation. Thank you!
It’s called White Savior Complex.
When I was growing up in the 80s and some frat-bro types ran around town dressed like the Three Amigos while swilling beers and fumbling their Spanish, parents and teachers would call it “tacky” and “annoying” and “juvenile”.
Now, in the 20s, the children of those frat-bros puts on the same outfit and does the same stupid shit. But their peers are the ones rolling their eyes and telling them that they don’t look cool, while the parents clap and take pictures and get off on a romanticized youth lived vicariously through their frat-bro kids.
So the frat-bros become resentful. They go home, pull out their crayons, and make up a naked brown man to give them permission to behave miserably. And then they go on podcasts and make Instagram reels explaining how - um, aktuly - if you don’t think the tourist-trap Spirit Halloween tier get-up I’m wearing on Cinco-De-Drinko to celebrate getting wasted is cool, you’re the real racists.
Then Budwiser releases an “Authentic Mexican Logger” and the same frat-bros lose their fucking minds because their favorite beer company just Went Woke.
Now, in the 20s
Fuck, my back
I was hoping to see this higher up. It’s not everyday that truth hits you like a ton of bricks, and this needed to be said.
When I was 16 I lived in a small village. It had the charm of country life, but it also had some off-putting characters. Harry, the town butcher, was an extremely right-wind, religious conservative, and a racist. Sarah, the priest’s mistress, never had kids and couldn’t stand them. And then there was Leah. She was Sarah’s sister’s daughter and I had a huge crush on her, except I didn’t even know it at the time because I wasn’t aware a girl could feel that way about another girl.
Anyway, I could write for hours about small town life, about how my friends were the only thing that got me through the day, about how I fell in love and out of love within the same date because the other person was telling me how they rescued a cat just to drop the other shoe - they rescued it from a black couple. I could tell you about racism and classism, about religion and how it turned the entire village against my parents, I could tell you about the time a young Asian child was forced to boil rice for the whole village because “it’s in his blood”, how his mother wanted to fight it but ended up cheering for the crowd that locked him in old mister Miller’s house for the night with just 20 bags of rice and a pair of drum sticks to serve as chopsticks. I could tell you about the Mexican family who once removed all their clothes and set them on a rope to dry in the town square and proceeded to sunbathe because they didn’t understand why people were saying their backs were wet. I could tell you about the Eastern European mobster who cut off two of my grandma’s fingers when she couldn’t pay for some cocaine, or the British “explorer” who came in and wanted to buy the town and put his name everywhere but he could only pay with some pictures of an old lady. Or I could tell you about when the Arab family moved next door so we all slept in shifts in my house because my parents were afraid of terrorists, until Harry the butcher carved “Mohammed” into a pig and left it on their lawn.
I know racism, I lived it all my life. So I could sit here and say a lot of things, but I think the previous poster has demonstrated well enough how you can just sit there and imagine shit and post it on the internet and all of a sudden it becomes true.
How do you not have the money for cocaine man, it literally grows on trees
Lots of fabrication in this story.
I’m interested in hearing about the Asian kid locked in a house to cook 20 bags of rice with drumsticks for utensils.
Lots of fabrication in this story
I mean, that was the point. Previous poster imagined a world. I imagined another one.
As for the Asian kid - one grain of rice at a time. Boiling water in a lot of tiny containers. It ended up being surprisingly efficient, save for a mild case of carpal tunnel syndrome.
Behold, i have drawn you as the soyjack savior complex.
No, that’s an entirely different thing
A closer example might be the literal plot to Dune
Only superficially. Dune deconstructs the entire heroic archetype. Paul Atreides’ emergence as the hero and leader of the Fremen is completely artificial and engineered for colonialist purposes (so that House Atreides can control the supply of spice with minimal resistance from the population of Arrakis).
The plan backfires, of course, as the Fremen jihad ends up being more successful than they’d anticipated and spreads off-world and out of Paul’s ability to control it.
They meant the literal meaning of literal, as in “you took her too literally” not the common meaning of “real” or “actual”
If you go around being publicly offended for another group because you saw someone wear or eat something YOU think they shouldn’t becuase “That’s not YOUR culture”. Then YOU might be a “White Savior”.
That’s a different thing, you should google these words you’re using.
Using “cultural appropriation” to drag down regular people is kind of pointless, like freaking out at someone for putting the wrong recyclable type of plastic trash in the garbage.
Cultural appropriation matters at the corporate level, where media shapes what regular people do. Do you want to talk about cultural appropriation? Talk about Disney, talk about Hollywood, talk about Jeep Cherokee, and Decathlon Quechua. To keep with the recycling analogy: your problem shouldn’t be ordinary people messing up their trash sorting, it should be vendors mass producing plastic trash for everything.
nah, it just depends on what you’re appropriating from what culture… doing the stereotypical mexican garb is ok with mexico… so that’s cool, dressing in some religious outfit is incredibly offensive… like a native american headdress with a bunch of feathers… it’s also especially offensive in america because of the native american genocide americans great great grandparents probably participated in….
it’s all context… also in how you wear it… (are you making fun of mexicans or having fun with mexicans?) but mexicans are generally cool with americans wearing sombreros… and have a long tradition of american tourists doing so…. plus a sobrero and a mexican blanket is functional gear, not some sacred thing.
cowboys and their whole style is also entirely mexican originally, our cultures are quite intertwined.
that doesn’t change anything else and it’s just cherry picking examples.
Complaining about sharing cultures IS racism. These idiots complaining about cultural appropriation have gone too far up their own ass.
Melding, sharing food clothing and customs makes everyone better! These bullshit micro divisions need to stop.
Sharing culture isn’t cultural appropriation.
What “idiots complaining about cultural appropriation”? It’s not exactly a common thing, despite what caricatures of them might make you think. No one is getting upset that anyone eats food from another culture.
The only actual examples I can think of that I’ve actually heard discussed are “please don’t dress as my race as a costume, it’s basically blackface” and “my religion was systematically driven to the brink of extinction, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t use it as a fun activity to express your creativity”.
These things always seem chock full of getting defensive about something that doesn’t really happen, or acting like the smallest pushback to the dominant culture doing whatever they want is incredibly terrible.
Appropriation isn’t an issue when it’s just cultures sharing. It’s an issue when people reduce the culture to the things in question, forget that there’s actually people involved who deserve respect, or outright claim ownership of the thing in question.Don’t go to a Halloween party dressed as a Puerto Rican. Don’t grab a random assortment of native American religious practices, mix them with crystals and use it to showcase your creativity.
How do Puerto Ricans dress up?
As with most things, it’s a continuum. Some assimilation is good, a hairstyle, a clothing style, food, even customs. Sometimes certain people can go too far, and it gets more problematic. Think the jeweler in Snatch that isn’t Jewish but pretends to be. The episode of The Neighborhood with Nicole Sullivan. Rachael Dolezal.
Rachael Dolezal.
Isn’t race at least as much a social construct detached from any physical or biological reality as gender is? If so, why wouldn’t transrace people be valid for essentially the same reason that transgender people are?
You can go down the rest of the radqueer rabbit hole from there, since most of their positions are just taking positions related to mainstream LGBTQ identities and extending them to ones less accepted by the mainstream LGBQ community, like xenogenders and being trans-things-other-than-gender.
The reason feelings of cultural appropriation exist is because the children of immigrants feel like society treats them as foreigners because they’re not white, despite growing up all their lives in the US/UK etc. This leads to feeling like some dipshit is enjoying the food and fashion of your home culture while rejecting it’s people. Think about a Maga moron voting to kick out all the Mexicans while wearing a sombrero and eating tacos; it’s a hypocrisy of culture vs race.
That’s just racism and you’re not going to fix it by isolating the immigrants more by chastising people that enjoy their culture.
It makes zero sense if the goal is to fight racism. If anything you’d want there to be MORE immersion and exchange of cultures so the immigrants are seen as part of the new fabric instead of separate from it.
I’m telling you how people feel, I’m not writing a manual towards a post race society. When people feel ostracised because they look Mexican, they get salty about the same society who routinely rejected them and made them feel like outsiders gleefully housing down Mexican food and cosplaying at being Mexican.
“We got to keep them seperate but treat them equal!”
Hmm wonder where I heard that before.
In the end, progressives and racists shared the same end goal: Segregation
This. The social Justice warriors that are peddling the cultural appropriation line are not representative of the culture or the people of that culture, their opinions, or feelings on the matter.
What we, as a society, need to do, is let cultures be offended when they feel offended, and not assume that they will be offended by something that we think they should be offended by.
Short version is: don’t be offended on behalf of someone else.
You don’t know them. You don’t know their culture. You don’t know what they see as offensive.
Stop assuming you do.
Exactly, just like when you have bullies in high school. Don’t assume that just because someone is wandering around mocking and relentlessly making fun of another student that the other student isn’t ok with it. We need to leave space for the victims to come forward if and when they feel uncomfortable, and not use our positions of power or authority to try to provide social support to people who we view as victims. After all, it worked for Anita hill and everyone who came after and we gave those dumb whores zero support.
See I can make a stupid, asinine argument too
That’s not really the same thing. People that appreciate another culture and enjoy and use aspects of a culture in their life and might be offending someone accidentally and a bully who is trying to harm someone deliberately are different. Intentions do actually mean something.
I won’t disagree there’s much more nuance than I even attempted to capture.
I’ll disagree if you think the person I responded to cares about that one bit vs just complaining about the woke mob of social justice warriors.
🔥
This video always made me giggle a bit: Students vs. Mexicans: Cultural Appropriation | Man on the Street
PragerU is a right wing propaganda machine (I’m not exaggerating that is literally their business model). That itself doesn’t invalidate this video in particular but should explain the motives behind it.
The concept of cultural appropriation seems to be pretty useless in practice.
The cases I’ve encountered where it makes some bit of sense fit better under the concepts of racism or exploitation. The complaints about cultural appropriation online seem to more often attack innocent behaviour or someone genuinely appreciating another culture.
Drink tea, make tacos, wear a kimono, don’t be an asshole
The actual complaints I see about cultural appropriation online are mostly directed at corporations trying to sell ethnic stuff. But that’s not as controversial.
The silly personal attacks are common in memes just like this one, serving as centrist strawmen to vilify progressives. People love to talk about and ridicule it so much that it seems a lot more common than it actually is.
I think a big part of appropriation is either pretending the thing is from a different culture or just divorcing it from any existing cultural context. People just don’t think about what an actual effect is so just knee jerk accuse anything vaguely similar of cultural appropriation.
Agreed on the first point. But even in progressive circles I hardly ever actually see this kind of behavior. Rather we want it to be a thing because it’s so satisfying to dunk on those ignorant and self-righteous morons.
So it’s been memed hard to the point that the term has become a favorite tool of right-wing pundits pushing culture war narratives.
Just something to consider as we accept and reinforce the trope.
Absolutely, or it’s like an internet liberal thing not a real person thing.
I was at a puzzle meet and had brought a harry Potter puzzle and had a moment of “oh shit, JK Rowling is not the best choice for this group” but no one actually cared for something that tangentially transphobic.
But that’s not as controversial.
It IS controversial. Its just controversial for the same chuds who demand the right to throw on brown-face and call it cosplay. As soon as a beer company starts releasing their label in Spanish or putting a foreign flag on a product or otherwise identify with the wrong kind of foreigner, a big segment of the population loses its mind.
A good example I heard once was concerning the tagelharpa. It’s an Estonian instrument, historically used in Estonian culture, however if you hear it you’ll probably think Vikings. The modern viking/pagan/neofolk music scene uses it prominently, and as it has a much broader reach than Estonian culture, this has lead (through no fault of the musicians I must add) to situations where many people think of it as a “viking” instrument, even though it never was. Thus, a piece of Estonian culture is widely appreciated as belonging to another culture, due to popular media influence.
I don’t know if this is really an example of cultural appropriation, but that example helped me grasp the concept (if it is a good example).
That’s an interesting one. It’s not like you can stop music and explain the instrumentation in the middle of a song. I have seen in live shows when they use uncommon instruments they’ll explain it either at the start or between songs.
That’s really interesting! Nice sounding instrument
It’s not. People use stuff from other places and call them different names all the time
…and then over the coming years, decades, or centuries adjust those things either for differences in practical use or cultural tastes and that’s where a lot of things in most cultures come from. Some things tend to independently evolve in lots of different places though because the idea is simple and the need it fills practically universal (like spears or fermented foods).
But don’t be shocked by the sheer amount of our people modified this thing that those people we traded with used who modified this other thing that some other people used, etc, etc and that’s why our cultural thing is really some ancient Babylonian thing repeatedly stolen, rebranded and iterated upon over centuries. You know, like how we measure time. Or for anyone of European ancestry, writing.
Kimono literally just means “thing to wear”.
I’ve heard multiple Japanese people tell me how funny it is how much foreigners concern themselves over wearing… Clothes.
And katana just means “one-sided blade.” But when you deliberately use a foreign word in English to describe something, you’re talking about a specific kind of that thing.
I understand that it’s a loan word, but my point was that a kimono’s cultural meaning is largely similar to how we would say, “Let me go find something to wear”. A kimono is a specific way to cut a single piece of cloth into a garment, but the result is still just clothes.
It’s like policing what is or isn’t “queso cheese”. It’s really not that big of a deal.
now i want a t-shirt/tote-bag with that line.
Congratulations, You just defined cultural appropriation.
If I had and it was that easy, we wouldn’t have this neverending stream at someone getting offended because someone did something associated with a culture they don’t have obvious blood ties to.
I think there is asshole behaviour that could be described as cultural appropriation, but I think the vast majority of them also fit under “exploitation” or “racism”.
It’s also apparent that if you tell people “cultural appropriation is bad”, you get pretty silly outcomes. Suddenly you have protests because a restaurant serves sushi without being ethnically japanese, or someone yells at you because you post a photo of a california roll.
Given those examples I should probably go have lunch
You’re being trolled, there’s nobody saying that unless online trolls convinced them. It’s concern trolling to stoke division.
Nobody has ever yelled at me for eating or posting a picture of my American Midwest grocery store sushi, get the fuck outta here.
The irony here is that the term cultural appropriation has been politically appropriated, the same way that many of these explorative racial theories are, like woke, like social justice, like critical race theory. They are taken from their academic settings and eventually used to suppress actual concerns raised by denegrating it and reducing it to something that is both laughable and fundamentally not what it is.
Great, let’s retread the right-wing’s favorite progressive strawmen for teh lulz. Any other culture war bullshit I should feel unjustly attacked over?
“Wie de schoen past trekt 'em aan.”
If you feel spoken to by this comic then maybe you got a problem…
Do you know what a strawman is?
Culture is meant to be shared, as long as you’re respectful and you’re not caricaturing or mocking the culture you’re trying to portray, most people from said culture would be flattered.
Mocking cultures is fine. Mocking anything is fine.
Obviously, but the intent is important.
Yeah context and intend make all the difference. Cultural appropriation is when you try to clad yourself in something that is a facsimile of another culture, usually for marketing or influence purposes, but you neither understand nor have any intend to understand the culture itself or the meaning behind the parts you use for your (usually financial) gain.
IDK, even then, I don’t think you need to understand the culture about it so much. E.g. there was some incident about a white girl wearing a qipao to prom and she got called out for it. In the end, it’s just a piece of clothing that looks nice. It isn’t some deeply symbolic thing for people.
I don’t expect her to try to understand Chinese culture before wearing a qipao (which originated in Mongolia before Chinese appropriated it BTW), and I don’t expect Chinese to understand Western culture before wearing a suit and tie.
But obviously there are some cases, as you said where context does matter.
On one hand certain things have certain meaning in the culture and maybe some people will look sidewise but on the other hand people that practice that culture probably don’t expect some random dude to know everything it their culture. But “cultural appropriation” has mostly been used to virtue signal
Lol, reminds me of one of the Mario games a while back - no idea what the context was, but Mario took on different personas, which I’m assuming gave him abilities specific to whatever ‘form’ he took kinda like Kirby.
Anywho, one of them was a Mexican theme, which made Mario don a sombrero and poncho. Lots of touchy white people on the internet were PISSED cuz how could Nintendo be so insensitive to the Mexican culture?!
…meanwhile, Mexican gamers were fucking ecstatic cuz HOLY SHIT MARIO’S WEARING A SOMBRERO! LET’S GOOOOOO!!!
Good times.
That was either Super Mario Odyssey or Paper Mario: Sticker Star (Mario can wear a sombrero in both). In Odyssey it’s just a themed cosmetic that can be bought with coins. In Sticker Star, it’s an attack.
Yeah and one of the reasons why we will never get again paper Mario references in other Mario games
God-damnit
I’ve never heard about “cultural appropriation” outside of jokes making fun of it. And it’s one of the right’s favourite strawmen. Maybe it’s time to let it go?
The counterexample to Mexicans and their Sombreros is Plains Indians and their War bonnet (those feather crowns they used to sell as “Indian kids costumes”), whenever cultural appropriation is mentioned this comes up, so I’d be rather surprised if you hadn’t heard of it before.
Any spicy takes on that one, or have you really just never heard of it?
Idk if I’m just old now and it’s not the parties I go to but I’m sure glad that “sexy native american” isn’t really a Halloween costume anymore.
Case in point: Mexicans loved Speedy Gonzalez.
When I was 12 or 13, we took a trip to Mexico and took public transportation and stayed in small non-touristy places where the people staying in the hotels were more likely to be Mexicans than Americans (not to save money, my parents just thought it would be more fun). I remember sitting in a hotel lobby with a TV on and some Mexican kids sitting around watching Speedy Gonzales cartoons dubbed into Spanish with their parents casually chatting and I was like, “WTF? Isn’t Speedy Gonzales racist? They don’t care? They like it?”
Like VindictiveJudge says, he’s the hero who outwits his opponents and always wins. I’d add that the opponents are always American.
Probably because he always outwits his opponents and always wins. He’s not any more crazy than the other Looney Tunes, he’s as smart as Bugs, and unlike Bugs, he’s never cruel and remains firmly heroic.
That’s the crux. He’s a Mexican stereotype, but at the time, it was rare to have a good guy who looked like that.
He was also the exact opposite of the other stereotype of the “lazy Mexican” - which, for anyone who’s ever worked construction with actual Mexicans, is comically inaccurate.
I wonder how much of the ‘lazy Mexican’ stereotype comes from a combination of an afternoon siesta (…to avoid the hottest part of the day, which could be deadly prior to air conditioning), and the chronic anemia that could be caused by hookworm infestations that used to be common in areas with poor sanitation (incl. the American south; some of the same stereotypes existed regarding rural southerners for many decades)?
Rodríguez cousin knew how to pack heat
I think he was a Salamanca.
Interestingly, they also made a heroic “lazy” Mexican in the form of Slowpoke Rodriguez. (He pack a gun.)
Snowflakes: “It is offensive for a westerner to wear a Japanese kimono. You are not Japanese!”
Native Japanese: “We insist you wear this kimono so you feel like part of the group.”
Based on a true story.
