• over_clox@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    Meanwhile, other studies say they wear tires out way faster because they’re heavier, and rubber tire dust adds quite a bit to the emissions as well.

    • jonne@infosec.pub
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      8 days ago

      While we should definitely prioritise public transport and micromobility over more cars, the tyre wear thing is a smaller issue by orders of magnitude compared to CO2 emissions.

      • over_clox@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        Have you ever worked in a mechanic shop to actually smell tire and brake dust? Hell, even if I wasn’t a smoker, my lungs are already probably fucked.

        And you’re not considering, where does all that tire dust actually go? Every time it rains, it gets washed off the roads, off into drainage canals and the environment in general. It doesn’t just disappear.

        • jonne@infosec.pub
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          8 days ago

          You have those same things with ICE cars. If you’re truly worried about the issue, let’s just ban private car ownership and invest in free public transport for everyone.

          • over_clox@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            I’d be game to go back to simple bicycles and horses to be perfectly honest. Sure, transportation would take longer and have different complications, but it would be much more environmentally friendly.

            • egonallanon@lemm.ee
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              8 days ago

              I will say I’m very anti horse drawn transport. One of the great achievements of ICE vehicles is they replaced horses and fixed the very large issue of the massive amounts of horse manure urban centres across the world were dealing with.

              • over_clox@lemmy.world
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                8 days ago

                I grew up on a horse ranch. Guess what?

                They make this amazing magical solution to the horse shit problem. It’s called a fucking shit bag.

                It’s not rocket science, you mount the shit bag to the horse’s ass, whenever it shits, the dookie goes in the bag.

                Sure it’s up to you to empty/clean/change the bags, but hell, every vehicle comes with some sort of maintenance.

                I would have thought the more intelligent argument would have been with the maintenance of horse shoes…

                • egonallanon@lemm.ee
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                  7 days ago

                  This does not solve the problem of the sheer volume that be created and need to be handled. Even moving single digit percentages of modal share over to horses in urban areas would create infrastructure problems that quite frankly don’t need to exist as we have better solutions.

                  Plus as you allude to with the horseshoes animals are vastly complicated things to maintain.

                  • ulterno@programming.dev
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                    7 days ago

                    If it were not for urban areas… Lots of space to just dig up and dump the manure (and then cover it of course). Maybe a nearby farm that would be happy to exchange a few bags for a carrot (well, it’s shit. How much value do you expect out of it?) or a drain line specifically made for horse dung which would lead to certain processing facilities and make them into useful stuff.

                    Instead of car parkings, there could be stables connected to said drain lines. You could pay for some standardised meals and hopefully free drinking water at the stable while you went on with your work.

                    Hey, has anyone written a story on this?

                    Plus as you allude to with the horseshoes animals are vastly complicated things to maintain.

                    Hey, if you keep a car and a dog, might as well keep a horse instead!

                • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
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                  7 days ago

                  Yeah, I’m just tired of all the horse drawn carriage owners with illegally modified shit-bags “rolling foal” at my EV.

    • dom@lemmy.ca
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      8 days ago

      Pick up trucks are the same weight or more than most evs sold today. The tire wear discussion was on weight of vehicles, not evs. Other sites reported on it and grossly overestimated the average weight of an ev.

      • over_clox@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        Have you ever stood next to a Cybertruck?

        I have. Those stupid sharp corners are close to the height of the average person’s fucking heart.

        And they’re glued together no less. Like WTF, real vehicles secure everything properly with threaded nuts and bolts.

        You can’t even get out of a Tesla on fire unless you know how to disassemble the door panel to access the emergency latch. WTF?

        Also, vehicle weight scales are pretty damn accurate, even mandatory in certain industries. I’m pretty sure nobody estimated a damn thing, they literally weighed the vehicles.

        • reddig33@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          The Cybertruck isn’t an average EV anymore than the gas powered Hummer is an average gas burning car.

        • jonne@infosec.pub
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          8 days ago

          There’s less than 50000 cybertrucks on the road. BYD sold 3 million cars in 2023, most of which are ‘normal’ cars that only weigh slightly more than the equivalent ICE car. The cybertruck is a rounding error and irrelevant.

          EVs on average wear out their tires slightly faster than a similar car, but it’s not by orders of magnitude, and they actually emit less brake dust because of regenerative braking.

          Again, private car ownership should definitely be discouraged and alternatives can be found, but this is a prime example of rejecting a solution that solves many issues because one aspect of it is slightly worse than the thing it’s replacing.

          • over_clox@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            Also, all the Cybertrucks got recalled, because roof trim panels are falling off because of bad/wrong glue.

            Glue?!?!?!

            Don’t they know how to attach parts to a motorized vehicle by now? Nuts and bolts and washers. You know, tried, true, tested, and proven technology?

            Look, I’m not against the idea of simple, affordable electric vehicles. But they should also be affordable, relatively easy to fix as necessary, and like not fucking lock you inside while you burn to death…

            • jonne@infosec.pub
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              8 days ago

              Why do you keep talking about the fucking cybertrucks? Everyone knows they’re shit. Nobody’s defending them here.

              • over_clox@lemmy.world
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                8 days ago

                Why do I keep talking about them? Because here in the states, even if you don’t own one and never want one, you can still end up behind one with parts falling off. I’m not ready to die yo.

                They’re a danger to everyone, and I’ll keep talking about them until they’re banned from the roads altogether, everywhere.

            • TowardsTheFuture@lemmy.zip
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              8 days ago

              We get it you hate musk everyone does but there are more manufacturers making EVs than just fucking Tesla. Please do not lump all EVs in with those pieces of shit.

        • shaggyb@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          In what fucking universe is a Cybertruck a representative sample of anything?

          And in what other fucking universe is any of the rest of what you said relevant?

          Don’t answer that, just leave.

    • dom@lemmy.ca
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      8 days ago

      It wasn’t way faster. It was marginally faster. This study was falsely reported on a number of times and that’s what people remember.

      • real_squids@sopuli.xyz
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        8 days ago

        Do you know the name of this study? I’m curious to see if they tested the same set of tires on both or if the EV was on factory low resistance ones

        • dom@lemmy.ca
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          6 days ago

          I was just searching and genuinely couldn’t find it anymore. I distinctly remember watching an engineering explained video on it, too, but couldn’t find it.

          The thing is: heavier cars wear tires down more. This also applies to large SUVs and Pickups. The issue is that people only care about it when it’s due to it being an EV.

        • dom@lemmy.ca
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          6 days ago

          If I recall they didn’t actually test the ev. They tested a heavier vehicle and just assumed that would be the ev since evs are heavier.

          One sec, ill look for it

    • Voyajer@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      That’s not even true now, modern ice cars have bloated weights to the point of matching or exceeding EV equivalents.

      2024 Ford mach e: 4,595 to 4,952 lbs

      2024 Ford explorer: 4,345 to 5,076 lbs


      2021 Acura TSX: 3709 to 4221 lbs

      Current Tesla model 3: 3891 to 4081 lbs

      • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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        8 days ago

        Why not compare a car that offers multiple variants instead of using different models?

        I could tell you that my 1993 Audi S4 was close to 4k pounds to prove that cars haven’t increased in weight that much, it would be irrelevant.

        If you compare the same model that comes in gas, hybrid and EV versions you get a realistic portrait. The Kona is one and going from gas to hybrid to EV is a 400lbs jump each time (from about 2900lbs to about 3700lbs).

        • Voyajer@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Truthfully I try not to think about Hyundai at all.

          I’m not sure where you’re getting 2900lbs from though, the cheapest 2wd trim is 3005lbs and the AWD ranges from 3203-3505 while the kona electric goes from 3571-3759lbs.

          I picked those vehicles specifically though because I have first hand experience riding/driving them and I consider them in roughly equivalent market segments. The other thing to consider is cars designed for multiple power train types are generally heavier than they have to be on the ev version due to unnecessary additional structural components.

          • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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            8 days ago

            Sorry, 3k lbs for the base gas version, 3750lbs for the base electric version, directly from their website. The hybrid version doesn’t exist anymore but it’s not the first time I do this comparison and it fell right in-between.

            4150lbs for an ioniq 5, 3500lbs for a Tucson, the first one being on an EV only platform. The Santa Fe is much bigger and that’s the gas model that weights the same as the ioniq 5 in the Hyundai lineup. So there, much better comparison than a bunch of vehicles from different brands. Because let’s be honest, you comparing the weight of a Mach e to an Explorer to show that gas vehicles weight has increased to the point of catching up to EVs doesn’t make much sense. Make an EV the size of an Explorer and see how much that weights! And your other reference is a sedan, which also doesn’t make much sense when comparing to an SUV.

            • Voyajer@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              3750lbs for the base electric version

              The Base electric version is 3,571lbs per Hyundai’s website.

              your other reference is a sedan, which also doesn’t make much sense when comparing to an SUV.

              I’m…not comparing it to an SUV. I’m comparing it to the model 3…

              Like I said, I’m controlling for market segment. These two are pairs of vehicles someone would feasibly compare against each other if they’re looking for a crossover SUV in one case or an entry-level luxury sedan in the other. Likewise I wouldn’t consider comparing the Tuscon and Ioniq 5 as soon as I saw the pricing difference between the most expensive Tuscon and cheapest Ioniq 5 being $10,000 because they’re not intended for the same buyer.

              • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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                8 days ago

                1880 X 2.2 = 4136lbs

                Price doesn’t matter, size does. If someone wants a compact SUV they won’t cross shop with a full sized SUV just because it’s in the same price range.

                • Voyajer@lemmy.world
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                  8 days ago

                  That’s the Ioniq 5, we were talking about the Kona Electric up until that point were we not? The Ioniq 5 wasn’t mentioned until your next paragraph.

      • over_clox@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        My mom’s car weighs about 2,315 lbs, so yet again, why are the vehicles getting so fucking heavy that even some of the roads and bridges can’t handle them?

        • Voyajer@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Safety standards coupled with electronics. My 02 RAV4 was 2800 for an SUV and I’m surprised it didn’t kill me. Moderate crosswinds would have me fighting the wheel constantly.

          • over_clox@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            People that feel a chip is somehow smarter and safer than them shouldn’t have a license in the first place.

            You’re either a skilled and aware driver, or you’re not.

            • Voyajer@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              I definitely agree there. I’ve long been for an advocate of increasing the difficulty of getting a license. Public transport will have to significantly improve before that becomes feasible though.

            • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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              8 days ago

              Ok… Doesn’t change the fact that safety equipment that makes the car safer in case of an accident is heavier than not having it.

              • over_clox@lemmy.world
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                8 days ago

                The basic Newtonian law of inertia makes this very relevant when the vehicle is now half a ton heavier than needed, plus waiting on processing lag through some AI system.

                When you’re driving around a huge box of safety equipment, you must not even trust yourself behind the wheel.

                Ain’t that just fantastic? We live in a world where people are led to believe that driving around an extra thousand pounds or so of hardware is somehow more energy efficient?

                When exactly did people get so fucking stupid? Lighter vehicles require less energy to drive, and are also much easier and quicker to maneuver around.

                That’s just raw science for you. If you take a 2000 pound car and add another 1000 pounds of hardware to it, that’s less energy efficient, regardless of the source of energy.

                • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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                  7 days ago

                  The discussion was about tire wear and now you’re bringing up efficiency into the mix.

                  Safety equipment is mostly about protecting the people inside the car (but also people outside the car), a motorcycle is much lighter than a car, would you rather get t-boned on a motorcycle than a modern car? Or a Model T instead of a 2025 Ford?

                  Brakes are better so braking distances aren’t any worse.

                  If even Ayrton Senna could make mistakes, I would rather all the idiots on the road have some tools to assist them and make them safer and seeing how you’re unable to keep up with your own conversation, I would rather see you having tools to make sure you don’t crash if you get distracted.

                  • over_clox@lemmy.world
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                    7 days ago

                    The heavier the vehicle is, the worse the braking distance will be. That’s just raw science, inertia is a thing ya know.

            • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
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              7 days ago

              Yeah! And real airline pilots fly the whole time by the seat of their pants!

              Sarcasm aside, antilock brakes, traction control, and driver assistance features are fantastic if/when used correctly. Sure the chip may not be smarter than you, but the chip will always be faster than you. In the time it takes your brain to realize that something has gone wrong where the rubber meets the road, your car’s computers have already started mitigating the issue. What needs to change is the driver’s response to those systems. If they come on, then the driver has gone beyond the driving parameters that the road, weather, and their own skill set will allow, and they need to immediately slow down and reevaluate the conditions.

              • over_clox@lemmy.world
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                7 days ago

                That’s not always true. I had a situation where a car backed out in front of me, only like 15 feet in front of me. If I (or the car itself) had hit the brakes, the inertia wouldn’t have allowed the car to stop in time, and I would have plowed into the side of his vehicle.

                There simply wasn’t enough time to bring the vehicle to a complete stop at that moment, but sure enough that’s what the automated stuff would have done.

                I responded within less than a tenth of a second by realizing that an impact was inevitable, and I didn’t want to slam into the side of the idiot’s car, so I did the seemingly counterintuitive thing. I didn’t hit the brakes (no point by then), instead I jerked my steering wheel to the left to avoid a side impact.

                Results: Instead of screeching brakes and slamming into the side of his car, I just clipped his back bumper. Much damage avoided, by my own reactions and not relying on some chip that would have just defaulted to brakes that wouldn’t have been able to stop the vehicle in time.

                • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
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                  7 days ago

                  So what I’m hearing is, you swerved without checking your mirror and still got into an accident with the other car?

                  • over_clox@lemmy.world
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                    7 days ago

                    Wrong. Totally wrong.

                    The other dude backed out in front of me, he was the one that didn’t check his mirrors or even turn his head to just fucking look.

                    Try keeping up will ya, I thought I explained fairly well.

                    Matter of fact, try re-reading the second sentence of the comment you responded to. I literally said dude backed out in front of me.

    • TowardsTheFuture@lemmy.zip
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      8 days ago

      Maybe I’m remembering wrong but wasn’t that study just based on weight…. Not tested on actual EVs, nor actually comparing EVs weights, but blanket labeling EVs at like 5k lbs or some shit?

    • GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml
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      8 days ago

      This comment is not useful unless backed up with data on how much relative emissions this would contribute.

      Unless provided, please refrain

      • ptc075@lemmy.zip
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        7 days ago

        Not OP, but tire dust is a real problem. It’s one of those things we haven’t studied until very recently. It’s just gone under the radar because it’s easy to point at tailpipe emissions.

        https://www.thedrive.com/news/tire-dust-makes-up-the-majority-of-ocean-microplastics-study-finds

        https://www.forbes.com/sites/lauriewinkless/2024/12/18/tires-shed-millions-of-tonnes-of-microplastics-into-the-environment/

        Now are EVs worse? If we compare the same class of vehicle, EVs are going to be about 20% heavier, so yes, they’re going to create more tire dust. Is that worse than the tailpipe emissions from a gas vehicle? Probably not. But it’s deceptive to not include tire dust when comparing emissions between the two vehicle types.

        • GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml
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          7 days ago

          I very much agree that tyre dust is a problem, and that weight is a large issue.

          However, these kinds of caveats are routinely used to downplay the level of harm reduction that transitioning ICE cars to EVs would bring. Note how right-wing media basically uses this technique - mostly with the emissions associated with making EV batteries - to justify the continued use of ICE cars.

          The antidote is to require numbers for this type of claim.

          Fwiw, I don’t own any kind of car, I bike and take transit everywhere, and I’m broadly against cars on account of their outsized negative impact on society. I still believe EVs represent a necessary amount of harm reduction.

          • bstix@feddit.dk
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            7 days ago

            I’ve just about had it with arguing against these kinds of right-wing talking points.

            No amount of what-about-ism will ever outweigh the environmental impact that the distribution of fuel alone is creating. About 40% of fossil fuels are used to transport … fossil fuels.

            That happens before you even need to consider how efficiently your own car is produced or how much tire dust it generates.

            https://medium.com/enrique-dans/fossil-fuels-dirty-to-use-dirty-to-transport-352ad18f440c

            Anyway, arguing against the talking points is fruitless regardless of what numbers say. They simply move the goal post whenever they’ve encountered enough people who don’t eat their shit at face value.

            They will defend their gasoline car because that’s the decision they already made. However they usually change their mind when they are actually in the market for a new car for themselves, because that’s also an easy decision.

        • Takumidesh@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          So four barrels every few years, versus a barrel every week or two for gas cars (one barrel nets around 20 gallons of gas) (and still 4 barrels every few years for tires anyway.)

    • shaggyb@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      Entirely dependent on the model. A base model RWD EV sedan (Model 3, Ioniq 6) weighs less than 2 tons.

      If you have a moronmobile like a Hummer, sure.

    • Oderus@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      My 2016 Challenger is 4200 lbs whereas my Tesla Model S is 4500 lbs. Hardly a large enough difference to matter, especially when you consider I had a Ram 3500 which is 7500 lbs. Even most SUV’s are heavier than my Tesla so I wonder why weight gets brought up.

      • KlausWintergreen@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        Challengers are very heavy cars (which is why they aren’t great sports cars :p haha) something like a civic is between 2800-3000 lbs.

        • Oderus@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          They’re certainly heavier than a Civic but much lighter than most trucks. Being RWD and having almost 500BHP, it’s also a tire eater so I go through tires much quicker than I expected and as such, it’ll pollute more than my Tesla in several ways.

      • over_clox@lemmy.world
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        7 days ago

        The more weight on the tires, the faster they wear out. And tire dust is indeed emissions, not all vehicle emissions come from the exhaust pipe.

        • Oderus@lemmy.world
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          7 days ago

          Also having so much power and being RWD, they go through tires faster than most cars so it’s doubly more polluting.