Torx kinda requires it be made of a decent alloy, it was developed to handle situations where you really really need torque. Handling more force than anything else was the guiding principle of its design.
Hence you find it in places such as bicycle disc brake rotor mounts.
I just use Torx for everything indoors. Granted a box of a 100 50x4,5mm wood screws lasts me a few years if i don’t have any project to pursue. No need to skimp a few € on this.
Torx deck screws are pretty standard now too. They work well and are usually powder coated. Our 10 year old deck is still doing fine in humid summers and frozen winters.
You’ve had significant issues with Torx screws rounding off? I think it’s designed be the least prone to that. My personal (very minor) issue with Torx screws is they provide too much grip and torque. They will break before they cam-out and I’ve snapped off screw heads and the bits themselves, even hand-tightening.
Agreed i strip so, so many philps and hex screws. Although the combination screw has saved my ass, when shit hits the fan and i striped philps. I get bertha THE BAG ASS FLATHEAD
note that this makes it even harder to tell which damn size they are
usually mild steel so they strip, especially when it turns out you’re using imperial in metric and vice versa
Too many years of wrenching on old equipment has soured me on all except for the good old fashioned hex bolt (S tier) and Robertson (A tier).
Even slotted beats most of these if the steel is decent, scrape out the rust and whack it with an impact screwdriver. I’ve turned many torx and hex in particular into slotted over the years.
External/male hex aka what big bolts have that you use a wrench for are A tier. I can’t really think of a more effective way to transfer large amounts of torque to a bolt or nut.
Female hex aka Allens are low C or high D tier. They would rate higher, but they’re made in 8.23*10^19 sizes, and the correct one nearly never falls to hand. Add to that the tendency for allen wrenches to be made of low quality extruded hex stock and you’ve got an excellent recipe for an unpleasant fastening experience.
I rarely see imperial hex. Many Allan key set still come with imperial sizes but all contemporary products and screws come as metric now (in my experience in the UK).
Even with the metric there are still many sizes needed, which I agree is frustrating. However, it ensures the correct bit size is used for the correct screw. Unlike Phillips, pozidriv and slotted. It also limits the amount of torque that can be applied to a screw that is proportional to the screws thickness.
The prevalence of low quality screws and tools for hex drives is because they are cheaper to manufacture. Its unfair to reduce the rank of the drive mechanism for that. If the average hex screw and driver were built with the same quality of materials as the average torx this would be less of an issue.
I would recommend you use a screwdriver with hex bit heads instead of Allen keys, if you need to use hex screws a lot. Much more pleasant experience and much less likely to bend and twist like Allen wrenches.
Well designed things and screws should come with appropriate drives. I wouldn’t recommend using a wrench on internal hex drives. If they needed high torque they should be external hex like a traditional bolt. Only external hex, large torque and large internal hex should be applied with a wrench. Other drive systems should be used when hand tightening is all that is needed. I’ve learned the hard way tighter isn’t always better.
I appreciate your passion for the superior type of fastener. I work in both metric and imperial for all types of fastener and metric allen is the easiest to work with in my opinion.
Yeah there’s no telling which standard you’ll encounter in the US, Probably both on the same machine.
And ain’t it funny that Allen is pretty much the only case where the most available drivers are cheap as shit L-shaped pieces of “tool” steel? Yeah, “allen screws and drivers are cheaper to manufacture” which is why they’re almost universally cheaper and shittier. Improve the quality of anything for the hell of it and guess the fuck what? The quality goes up. My algebra teacher taught me about that, it’s the transitive property of obvious bullshit.
I could be talked into bumping Hex up to B, I just want it between Phillips and Robertson.
I don’t have any experience with Pozi screws in the US, but doing a quick search they look like a solid upgrade over Phillips, so I’m guessing I would agree if I actually used them.
You get the self centering speed of Phillips with less cam out. It’s standard for most construction style work, very useful when you need to do 100+ screws a day.
It can be a bit of a nightmare when you first start doing DIY. Because you may not recognise the difference between Pozi and Phillips. Both drivers will turn each screw, but the wrong driver will make cam out and stripping more likely.
If you use the right driver and right size of driver. It’s very good. In my experience it’s much better than Phillips.
Torx, hex and Robertson are better, but they don’t self centre. So if your doing a lot of screwing, pozi drive is king. Because it self centres, it’s much faster. It’s great for construction type work (decking, plasterboard, walls etc).
If your doing more fine work, or need to apply a lot of torque it’s shouldn’t be used. But very long/thick screws tend to be external hex, torx or combinations of these at Screwfix/Toolstation.
Pozidriv is what Phillips should have been all along, except that bed has already been shat. It’s like the American electrical socket, someone made a decision in 1902 that we’re still stuck with and modern attempts to improve it just get in the way.
Pozi is amazing for household applications where you don’t need the torque of torx, and amazing for line work where screws won’t be touched ever again (framing etc.)
I feel like you didn’t give enough credit to slotted and combo (& hex but others have said that). Being able to be removed with a quarter or other coin is incredibly useful in applications where access to screwdrivers isn’t a given.
Yeah, combo is where it’s at in terms of field serviceability. I pretty much always have a flathead on hand, but very rarely have a torx but set, Allen key, or Robertson close at hand if I’m in the field.
I’m a technician and keep my 9 most-used screwdriver bits in its handle and all of these are usually fine for most applications… Except the slotted screw! I literally get annoyed every single time I have to use one, it always slips out and it’s significantly slower to screw/unscrew anything. Also, I only want to carry one, but if I use one wide enough to minimize slipping, it’s usually too thick to fit in the slot! “Screw” you, flathead screws and the $0.0001 you save with each one…
Here’s what I use most often (not necessarily in order):
Hey now, you can’t just lump Robertson and “Square” as the same ones, one is assuredly better and it sure as shit as not square. Robertsons have a slight taper that prevent the bit from slipping out, and the stupid square ripoff has 0 angles. So if you use Robertson bits on a square screw, it gets super fucked, and if you swap it basically doesn’t work at all. If you use Robertson for both, its fucking magic.
TLDR: Square bits not same. Square bit bad. Robertson good.
In Canada it’s my preferred screw. Sometimes it gets stuck but rarely, and if it does you just back off / reverse a little bit. Its amazing because you don’t need magnets to get it to stay on the end of your driver as you line it up so much easier to do everything one handed, rarely ever strips, and you can torque it a stupid amount if you want to
Example of a Canadian problem:
Using impact driver drill to remove Robertson screws, the screws get stuck so good that you can shake the tool by the screw an it won’t let go.
They’re used in cheap drywall screws and really suck in that application. The screw is too soft and the drivers are also usually too soft and strip. Once the driver starts to round over it’s ruined.
All Canadian carpentry is done with Robertson or nails, drywall with Phillips because you don’t want to apply a lot of torque so Phillips is perfect for that application because Phillips is shit.
Those aren’t separable issues. A good drive system would do more to compensate for material deficiencies. A shitty torx screw is a lot better than a shitty robertson screw. Robertson is at best C tier.
I think torx are usually in higher end applications. So a shitty torx is going to be better quality materials than a equivalent shitty hex and Robertson.
I think you’ve been collecting shit square systems then. Try an actual set of Robertson screws with a Robertson driver, and you’ll have a very different experience. Squares have no taper, Robertson’s do. This is also assuming where ever you find them, they have named them correctly, but I swear they ain’t the same.
Because they aren’t the same, or compatible with eachother really. I use them a lot and can almost promise you the problem is when you involve the “square” one’s at all. Robertsons all have a taper, so you can kinda use square bits/screws either each other, but they will chew the shit out of each other. Squares will always slip/strip, Robertson is far better IME.
In theory they’re good, but I’ve had a few too many allen/hex screws strip and having both SAE and metric standards is irritating. Tool quality has been an issue as well, I’ve had shitty Torx screwdrivers last for years and years while a decent allen wrench will snap or wear out way faster. Still miles better than Phillips though.
Edit: also you can use Torx bits on hex screws, so more points for Torx.
Thwy strip, and good luck with torquing them to anything. I can’t count how many times I had to drill out hex screws, and I don’t even work with metal that much
Torx is only good if your screw is non rusting it rounds off too fast with almost any sign of rust.
Torx kinda requires it be made of a decent alloy, it was developed to handle situations where you really really need torque. Handling more force than anything else was the guiding principle of its design.
Hence you find it in places such as bicycle disc brake rotor mounts.
I just use Torx for everything indoors. Granted a box of a 100 50x4,5mm wood screws lasts me a few years if i don’t have any project to pursue. No need to skimp a few € on this.
Torx deck screws are pretty standard now too. They work well and are usually powder coated. Our 10 year old deck is still doing fine in humid summers and frozen winters.
You’ve had significant issues with Torx screws rounding off? I think it’s designed be the least prone to that. My personal (very minor) issue with Torx screws is they provide too much grip and torque. They will break before they cam-out and I’ve snapped off screw heads and the bits themselves, even hand-tightening.
If there’s slightly-deeper-than-surface rust the lobes get brittle and tend to break off.
Dude I wish I didn’t have to grind my torx off when the head rusted and teeth all ground off
Agreed i strip so, so many philps and hex screws. Although the combination screw has saved my ass, when shit hits the fan and i striped philps. I get bertha THE BAG ASS FLATHEAD
had to dremel one of my laptop’s (stripped) philip head screws to use a flat head screwdriver on it
it worked, somehow
You sure it might not have been a posidrive instead of Philips?
Everybody needs one big ass flathead just to demo with. The superior wonderbar.
Disagree. Torx are the easiest to strip. Torx bits literally last 12 bolts or so.
Hex should be B teir. Pozi should be C, it’s very common in the UK for low torque applications. But it looks deceptively similar to Phillips.
Hex could even be A tier except…
Too many years of wrenching on old equipment has soured me on all except for the good old fashioned hex bolt (S tier) and Robertson (A tier).
Even slotted beats most of these if the steel is decent, scrape out the rust and whack it with an impact screwdriver. I’ve turned many torx and hex in particular into slotted over the years.
what do you do?
There are not too many metric hex sizes.
There are too many imperial sizes, many of which have silly names.
Having cut the head off many rounded bolts I question your judgement.
External/male hex aka what big bolts have that you use a wrench for are A tier. I can’t really think of a more effective way to transfer large amounts of torque to a bolt or nut. Female hex aka Allens are low C or high D tier. They would rate higher, but they’re made in 8.23*10^19 sizes, and the correct one nearly never falls to hand. Add to that the tendency for allen wrenches to be made of low quality extruded hex stock and you’ve got an excellent recipe for an unpleasant fastening experience.
I rarely see imperial hex. Many Allan key set still come with imperial sizes but all contemporary products and screws come as metric now (in my experience in the UK).
Even with the metric there are still many sizes needed, which I agree is frustrating. However, it ensures the correct bit size is used for the correct screw. Unlike Phillips, pozidriv and slotted. It also limits the amount of torque that can be applied to a screw that is proportional to the screws thickness.
The prevalence of low quality screws and tools for hex drives is because they are cheaper to manufacture. Its unfair to reduce the rank of the drive mechanism for that. If the average hex screw and driver were built with the same quality of materials as the average torx this would be less of an issue.
I would recommend you use a screwdriver with hex bit heads instead of Allen keys, if you need to use hex screws a lot. Much more pleasant experience and much less likely to bend and twist like Allen wrenches.
Well designed things and screws should come with appropriate drives. I wouldn’t recommend using a wrench on internal hex drives. If they needed high torque they should be external hex like a traditional bolt. Only external hex, large torque and large internal hex should be applied with a wrench. Other drive systems should be used when hand tightening is all that is needed. I’ve learned the hard way tighter isn’t always better.
Well, yeah.
I appreciate your passion for the superior type of fastener. I work in both metric and imperial for all types of fastener and metric allen is the easiest to work with in my opinion.
Yeah there’s no telling which standard you’ll encounter in the US, Probably both on the same machine.
And ain’t it funny that Allen is pretty much the only case where the most available drivers are cheap as shit L-shaped pieces of “tool” steel? Yeah, “allen screws and drivers are cheaper to manufacture” which is why they’re almost universally cheaper and shittier. Improve the quality of anything for the hell of it and guess the fuck what? The quality goes up. My algebra teacher taught me about that, it’s the transitive property of obvious bullshit.
I could be talked into bumping Hex up to B, I just want it between Phillips and Robertson.
I don’t have any experience with Pozi screws in the US, but doing a quick search they look like a solid upgrade over Phillips, so I’m guessing I would agree if I actually used them.
You get the self centering speed of Phillips with less cam out. It’s standard for most construction style work, very useful when you need to do 100+ screws a day.
It can be a bit of a nightmare when you first start doing DIY. Because you may not recognise the difference between Pozi and Phillips. Both drivers will turn each screw, but the wrong driver will make cam out and stripping more likely.
Pozidriv should be fucking banned oh my god why is it so common in the uk it’s so deeply inappropriate for 99.99% of applications
If you use the right driver and right size of driver. It’s very good. In my experience it’s much better than Phillips.
Torx, hex and Robertson are better, but they don’t self centre. So if your doing a lot of screwing, pozi drive is king. Because it self centres, it’s much faster. It’s great for construction type work (decking, plasterboard, walls etc).
If your doing more fine work, or need to apply a lot of torque it’s shouldn’t be used. But very long/thick screws tend to be external hex, torx or combinations of these at Screwfix/Toolstation.
Pozidriv is what Phillips should have been all along, except that bed has already been shat. It’s like the American electrical socket, someone made a decision in 1902 that we’re still stuck with and modern attempts to improve it just get in the way.
Pozi is amazing for household applications where you don’t need the torque of torx, and amazing for line work where screws won’t be touched ever again (framing etc.)
I feel like you didn’t give enough credit to slotted and combo (& hex but others have said that). Being able to be removed with a quarter or other coin is incredibly useful in applications where access to screwdrivers isn’t a given.
Yeah, combo is where it’s at in terms of field serviceability. I pretty much always have a flathead on hand, but very rarely have a torx but set, Allen key, or Robertson close at hand if I’m in the field.
I prefer flat over Philips imo, phillips very easy to strip
any screw is a flathead screw if you have a dremel
So couldn’t you turn a flathead into a phillips?
I’m a technician and keep my 9 most-used screwdriver bits in its handle and all of these are usually fine for most applications… Except the slotted screw! I literally get annoyed every single time I have to use one, it always slips out and it’s significantly slower to screw/unscrew anything. Also, I only want to carry one, but if I use one wide enough to minimize slipping, it’s usually too thick to fit in the slot! “Screw” you, flathead screws and the $0.0001 you save with each one…
Here’s what I use most often (not necessarily in order):
Hey now, you can’t just lump Robertson and “Square” as the same ones, one is assuredly better and it sure as shit as not square. Robertsons have a slight taper that prevent the bit from slipping out, and the stupid square ripoff has 0 angles. So if you use Robertson bits on a square screw, it gets super fucked, and if you swap it basically doesn’t work at all. If you use Robertson for both, its fucking magic.
TLDR: Square bits not same. Square bit bad. Robertson good.
flat beats Phillips you Philistine! sure it’s not self centering but at least you can torque it and it’s compatible with improvised tools.
Robertson Square that high up? This list must have a few loose screws.
I’ve used them very rarely, but I’ve never had one strip unlike everything beneath it so I can’t complain.
I can complain the screw bit gets stuck inside each time and due to it being barley used in the US they are a pain to find.
In Canada it’s my preferred screw. Sometimes it gets stuck but rarely, and if it does you just back off / reverse a little bit. Its amazing because you don’t need magnets to get it to stay on the end of your driver as you line it up so much easier to do everything one handed, rarely ever strips, and you can torque it a stupid amount if you want to
Example of a Canadian problem: Using impact driver drill to remove Robertson screws, the screws get stuck so good that you can shake the tool by the screw an it won’t let go.
With the exception of pocket screws, weirdly. Pocket screws are somehow all Robertson.
They’re used in cheap drywall screws and really suck in that application. The screw is too soft and the drivers are also usually too soft and strip. Once the driver starts to round over it’s ruined.
All Canadian carpentry is done with Robertson or nails, drywall with Phillips because you don’t want to apply a lot of torque so Phillips is perfect for that application because Phillips is shit.
That’s a shitty screw then not the style of head issue?
Those aren’t separable issues. A good drive system would do more to compensate for material deficiencies. A shitty torx screw is a lot better than a shitty robertson screw. Robertson is at best C tier.
I think torx are usually in higher end applications. So a shitty torx is going to be better quality materials than a equivalent shitty hex and Robertson.
I think you’ve been collecting shit square systems then. Try an actual set of Robertson screws with a Robertson driver, and you’ll have a very different experience. Squares have no taper, Robertson’s do. This is also assuming where ever you find them, they have named them correctly, but I swear they ain’t the same.
Because they aren’t the same, or compatible with eachother really. I use them a lot and can almost promise you the problem is when you involve the “square” one’s at all. Robertsons all have a taper, so you can kinda use square bits/screws either each other, but they will chew the shit out of each other. Squares will always slip/strip, Robertson is far better IME.
I’ve literally never in my life seen a square or robertson screw. Pozi though is like 90% of all screws.
Very popular in Canada
Most electrical panels use Robertson from my experience
Them square joints is tight. Never slip out on an impact.
Cabinetry screws also
I found a screw that was a tamper proof torx apparently. With a hole in the middle. Is that even higher up?
Ah, the worlds best security screw, the one you can open by jamming a flathead in it.
Allen/Hex is supposed to be C tier? Yeah right…
In theory they’re good, but I’ve had a few too many allen/hex screws strip and having both SAE and metric standards is irritating. Tool quality has been an issue as well, I’ve had shitty Torx screwdrivers last for years and years while a decent allen wrench will snap or wear out way faster. Still miles better than Phillips though.
Edit: also you can use Torx bits on hex screws, so more points for Torx.
Don’t use torx bits on hex screws. It is super easy to strip them that way, and even easier to get the bit stuck.
You are right, but it has also saved me a few times when hex bits/wrenches weren’t readily available.
Torx screws might last for years, but Torx bits don’t last for more than a minute. Bloody hate them!
Thwy strip, and good luck with torquing them to anything. I can’t count how many times I had to drill out hex screws, and I don’t even work with metal that much
I do like a good Robertson. Don’t even need a magnetic tip to hold them on.
At a glance the Philips screw looks like a sad face. It’s like it knows how it makes us all feel
The second any dirt or rust get involved that scale gets inverted
Square is best here imo