Image description:
Shopping for a laptop as a Linux user:
Screenshot from the Simpsons where Otto is talking to Marge and Homer standing next to a window in their house with a caption “Oh wow, windows!.. I don’t think I can afford this place.”
I hate that nowadays everything comes with pre-installed spyware and that they charge you for it makes it even worse…
- Want a TV? Suck on our Android TV with Google spyware embedded
- Want a phone? Get our Android with Google spyware, or go for an Apple with Apple spyware
- Want a computer? We’ll shove Windows spyware down your throat
Ffs I just want devices that I own to not spy on me, and I can’t even buy them anymore…
Each of them require flashing a custom privacy respecting OS onto it,
and that’s a real problem…Nice list, I would add routers (not everywhere). But for example here in Germany you get a device from your ISP for free but don’t try to change the DNS settings because your ISP wants to know what you are doing online.
Only alternative is a fritzbox which is highly overpriced for a simple router+modem. >200€ for a cablerouter.
I had to buy a used fritzbox, need to nearly hacked them for activating the deactivated bridge-mode and put a cheap Asus router on it with flashed openwrt.
I needed 6 months for the whole setup.
Unless you are using DoH or DoT it does not matter which DNS server you have configured on the modem/router, DNS requests are sent as plain text so your ISP can still see them and will know which sites you are seeing.
OpenWRT with DoH or DoT bypasses that problem, alternatively a VPN with custom DNS. Also a Pihole or Adguard instance never hurt. But at the end of the day someome owns those DNS servers and will likely log your use.
That’s exactly my setup. Openwrt + stubby + DoT. Which points to an external AdguardHome + unbound. Wireguard is also used.
You can double nat if you want.
You can’t just buy a modem? And modems are really that pricey where you are?. I can get a modem router combo for $150. Maybe $200 if I want to splurge a little bit that meets most of my needs. And then if you’re really worried about like linksys OS or something like that, you can just flash DDWRT onto it? I’m not saying the United States service providers are better, but does Germany service providers really make it that complicated to just have your own modem? Because it’s a super simple process in America. 6 months just seems insane to set up a router and modem
Pretty sure AT&T in the US requires the use of their “U-verse” modems with a lot of their internet options. I think comcast locked unlimited data behind using their modem unless you wanted to pay more for the unlimited data than they charge for the modem. I never tried turning on bridge mode on them though, so no clue if that’s enabled or not.
No isp in the us can require you to use and rent their modem. I have Comcast unlimited is just another tier like all their other bs. Its not locked to a modem.
But AT&T does or at least did. You can/could put it in bridge mode though and use a secondary one. https://support.eero.com/hc/en-us/articles/207988076-Setting-up-eero-with-AT-T-U-verse https://forums.att.com/conversations/att-internet-equipment/can-i-use-a-different-modem-and-router-to-connect-with-uverse-internet/5df0012dbad5f2f6063a903b https://robotpoweredhome.com/att-modems/
For Comcast, I never said you can’t just get unlimited. Just that it cost more than getting the modem with unlimited: https://www.xfinity.com/learn/internet-service/data $25/month for modem+unlimited while its $30/month for unlimited. Cheaper to take the modem even if you don’t use it.
It takes so long because I wasn’t aware for example that my ISP (the only available in my destination) only accepts their own routers or fritzbox. So I had to send back some cheap routers which aren’t usable.
Getting knowledge about hidden bridge mode was a time eater too.
The tv thing is the most insane. Like I grew up used to knowing phones are all tapped and computers too. But I pay to not have ads on tv but my tv itself has ads. And I can run a Linux computer and we’re getting somewhere with spyware and ad free phones even if it’s not yet where I need to switch, but tv, fucking hell
It’s not even the spyware or ads that piss me off the most about “smart” TVs, it’s how they always seem to lag to fucking shit. I’ve mostly used lower end ones, but even a few mid range ones I’ve used are still laggy pieces of shit that obviously have the cheapest components imaginable. Which for a normal tv is fine, expected even! But on a “smart” tv where to do anything at all you have to dig through their shitty, counter intuitive “smart” menu, it just sucks.
And then you want to watch some normal tv after a long day and the fuckin thing won’t let you because it demands it installs an update, which thanks to those cheap components, takes far longer than it should
It’s not only you. A couple years ago I sold and set up brand new display tvs. They were atrocious with how much they lagged out of the box. I stay away from roku for that reason, their TCL roku tvs are the worst for lag, or they were back then at least.
AFAIK, you can flash a de-googled version of Android TV on some devices, look up LineageOS’ website.
Unfortunately it’s concept which were in the past.Nowdays u are not owning ur device,you are actually just renting it. Unless new laws are passed that will prohibit such a business model.
I do own my devices.
Companies want you to not own the devices, and rent them through a subscription model,
however I refuse to do that.If you do that / fall for that,
then you’re part of the problem making such a future a reality…I refuse this too,but i explained current trend and we will not able to do anything about it without law.
If you do that / fall for that, then you’re part of the problem making such a future a reality…
Lots of peoples’ buying habits and trust-based attitudes were forged last century.
It’ll take a generation or two for new habits to form.In the meanwhile modern businesses will make hay by selling trojan-horses to old school customers , and using the profits to tie-in new users to new services to try to capture/brainwash the next gen into thinking there is no choice.
I think you’ll remain in the minority unless ‘ignorant’ consumers who ‘fall for that’ can become educated and learn about the options.
Yeah and try to load a custom OS into anything other than an computer is a nightmare, just last week while trying to install twrp recovery and flash a custom ROM which I been doing for quite some while hard bricked my phone, mad ended up fucking it completely by trying to fix it with mtkclient.
I build computers and sell them, and will put whatever OS you want on them, except Windows. If you want windows, I take $150 off the price of the tower.
I’m a developer, modder and privacy advocate, I know how to put a custom OS on my hardware, but I’m a minority.
However the average joe does not,
and they, the majority,
are forced into using spyware.Often without them even knowing so,
which is a true issueYou give a discount if people use windows?
I don’t have to install anything, and you’re getting a machine with a BIOS, but no OS. I tell my customers up front that I’m not going to put Windows on, though I am looking into the legality of possibly offering Tiny10, but that looks questionable.
I’m not going to charge for work I didn’t do.
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Apple spyware? Cute that you make shit up to justify your victimhood. The vendors that install actual spyware appreciate your ignorance.
Right, Apple is a champion of open source and transparency.
That wasn’t the accusation.
There are many who use Apple laptops as Linux laptops.
I don’t understand your initial point. He’s talking about what you get when you buy a new PC. If you buy an Apple PC, you’ll get Apple spyware. It doesn’t imply anything about some Apple buyers putting Linux on their PCs
Apple spyware means exactly what to you? You can’t just make shit up because you hate Apple. Then on top of that expect someone who is more knowledgeable to accept your ignorance.
When people ask for advice and reject the most common paths that professional take because they cannot get over their own ignorance, they aren’t actually asking for advice. They are playing victim and looking for their fellow ignorants to ditto them.
I 100% guarantee you that any Apple product is collecting your data and squeezing as much profit as possible out of it. Why? well, Why not!
Source: trust me bro
Except it’s not. It’s great that you understand most companies are positioned this way but Apple is not. I don’t expect anyone in a technology forum that cannot understand the nuances.
Paranoia is good but if you choose Google because you falsely believe you have no choice because everyone else is doing it too, then cool.
I am no pied piper and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I abhor groupthink and while I will never refrain from pointing out the obvious cases of it, I couldn’t care less if anyone listened. People far smarter than I have written on the folly of arguing in these instances.
Same with Windows computers. You make no sense
There are a lot of smart people making sure Apple hardware supports Linux. There is a limited number of variations, the hardware itself has high built quality and Apple pushes support into the Linux community so the hardware can more easily run Linux.
The same cannot be said about any random windows laptop.
As others have noted, if you want a Linux first laptop, there are options.
However this idea that Apple spies on its users has no merit. It’s a claim I have only witnessed being made by the witless.
I’ve been in the internet long enough to know not to expect fools to accept they are fools.
Unlike the morons of the internet, I am always ready to be proven wrong. However, it doesn’t look like that’s about to happen here.
According to the current class action lawsuit, the privacy settings for the app store do nothing. So consent doesn’t matter. Building a digital fingerprint after explicitly saying they don’t might be called spying.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/09/apple-privacy-tracking-lawsuit/
Have you considered that your approach may contribute to your difficulties dealing with such people? The tone of your messages is extremely aggressive.
No, I’m good. I’m not here to make friends. I’m not even expecting to challenge anyone’s techno-religion. At best I would say this is devil advocacy but it’s not quite that since it’s not about what I believe or do not believe. But it’s about what others believe and the display of fervent belief in others intrigue me, especially where it exists in the face of clear unambiguous reality.
For example, Trump supporters fascinate me in this same way. People say being nice is a better approach there as well, but i am not trying to deal with them or change their minds either. In that situation I refer to it as stick poking.
Again, it’s the belief that intrigues me. The sociology behind it is understudied.
Educate yourself fruity,
Apple does spy on youYou made the accusation, you back it up. I’m not doing the leg work for you.
Here are a few examples, but if you do some research like I told you to, you’ll stumble upon many more:
- Apple ignored/ignores disabling of “Share iPhone Analytics”:
https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-dsid-analytics-personal-data-test-1849807619 - Apple started scanning your local files even if you do not use iCloud / Apple services:
https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-now/ - Apple (allegedly) left in a backdoor to iPhones (likely on purpose and in cooperation with government officials):
https://www.kaspersky.com/about/press-releases/2023_kaspersky-discloses-iphone-hardware-feature-vital-in-operation-triangulation-case
only person that cites sources instead of just being a kind of aggressive tool, this post deserves to be at the top fs
Click bait
Click bait
Hardware flaw
None of this is spyware. Not a single piece.
If I cared I could have guessed these were some of the examples you added to your “Apple is bad head cannon” but these still aren’t what is being alleged by the original poster, spyware.
At best you can claim Apple is using terms and conditions to add wiggle room but again, not spyware.
I asked if you know what spyware is but I get that it doesn’t matter. Your head cannon is unbeatable and it’s easier to dismiss me as a no nothing asshole. The crowd has spoke, this technology forum is more interested in groupthink than technology.
What are your sources for debunking mine?
Besides you just not liking to face the truth?Blanket surveillance is not clickbait,
it’s spyware, and a problem.But sure continue to stick your head in the sand,
that will surely help humanity beat this problem.deleted by creator
- Apple ignored/ignores disabling of “Share iPhone Analytics”:
Apple’s entire schtick is the walled off garden where they can control what you’re allowed to do and yes they spy on it
You keep making that claim about spying without attempting to back it up.
You’re confusing me with others, just the once, but hey, you’re free to lick apple’s boots. Fairly common knowledge that just about everything corporation that can include spyware does. You think Apple doesn’t track every purchase you make on their platform and utilize that data in reference to your name, phone number, email, geo-location, bundle it altogether and sell to advertisers?
Yes. Free to think it because it’s true. Apple doesn’t sell their users out, they get their money up front on the hardware…the thing people like you call the Apple Tax.
Buy a Framework, System76 or something else with first class Linux support.
Love their concept but I just can’t afford it. My problem isn’t finding a machine that works well with Linux. It’s finding a machine that I can afford. And the stupid windows fee for something I will immediately uninstall is a big deal to me.
I think most Lenovo and dell computers provide you with the option to go without an OS or something like Ubuntu.
Only select top-end models in my country unfortunately.
Ubuntu is basically the only Linux distro I’ve seen offered on most computers from most if the big manufacturers.
Want something else? Install it yourself, or get a Slimbook or something similar to that.
Have you considered second hand? I’m not talking second hand specifically for framework or other mentioned brands, but just in general.
I feel it is not yet normalized to consider second hand for electronics, yet you can find quite some good deals. Not everything needs to be bought new, especially if you are price sensitive. One generation or 2 older hardware bought second hand can be better and cheaper than new.
Yes, I’m a huge fan of second hand as well, but this has to be a brand new laptop for external reasons.
I’m in fact writing this from a 12 year old Thinkpad that I restored.
What are your actual requirements? Are you looking for something specific?
Thanks for trying to help me out but in this situation the laptop must be new, sold through a retailer in my country that is on a specific list. I don’t think you can help me out with this one, there just aren’t any options that meet this demand that have no system or linux. They always come with windows preinstalled.
yooo old thinkpad <3
which model? xx20?
T420s.
I love it but it is pretty slow (i5 model)
very nice
There are newer Thinkpads that can also be found second-hand. With NVME storage and newer CPUs. The Linux support for them has actually gotten better. Lenovo is still the best hardware for Linux out of all the old manufacturing brands.
I watched a YouTube video where this guy buys thinkpads that are “broken” and often they just need ram installed or something simple, and for a minor risk of buying a dud, he gets laptops for super cheap.
It’s what I used to do myself. I have had multiple thinkpads that I bought BIOS-locked and fixed that problem using a screwdriver and some good timing :D Amazing machines.
But I am looking for something brand new, because of requirements that were not set by me.
Framework has their 11th gen Intel laptops right now as a barebones for $499 USD from B-stock, new components, if that interests you.
Otherwise, Chromebooks that you can flash replacement coreboot are another good option.
Unfortunately Framework doesn’t retail in my country and that’s the requirement. But that does sound very enticing, I’ll keep an eye on their B-stock. Thanks!
As for the flashed chromebooks that sounds like a pretty cool weekend project but I need something with a little more power.
Important to remember that not all Chromebooks are created equal. There are some that have i5/i7s or Ryzen CPUs in them that will rival most laptops. I see $200-500 USD Chromebooks all the time with decent specs refurbed or clearance.
Is the 500usd for the full computer? I got confused before that some of the cheapest configurations didn’t have everything needed to make the computer, like RAM and storage.
It includes everything except RAM, Storage, and the USB C modular ports. With all of that you’re probably looking more like $575-600. They do, however, have 8GB of RAM for $15, cheap storage options, etc, so it’s a pretty good deal overall for such a repairable and upgradable laptop.
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Oems like dell pay almost nothing for their windows license. Compared to the cost of the laptop it’s negligible.
When I bought a Dell XPS choosing to have Linux installed discounted 100$ from the purchase.
That’s significant enough to buy a case or accessory.
Buy used
I would not buy a laptop used
Why? There are plenty of cheap well built laptops that will easily outlive some new garbage PC.
Not really, most laptops lack upgradablity and you have no idea what state the battery is going to be in.
And a new computer wouldn’t have the same upgradeability issues? Batteries don’t normally degrade that quickly, at least not the ones in good computers.
There’s plenty of 2-3 year old thinkpads or other business machines for nothing out there. Most are upgradeable, and even if they aren’t you can just look for one that meets your requirements.
You can get a laptop with a i3 or N series and it will have better battery life and thermals. If your taking about a [mini]pc that makes sense but buying a old device when there are new devices that aren’t to expensive doesn’t make sense.
If you uninstall Windows you can get a refund for it.
Pinebook Pro?
I have one, and it’s neat, but it just isn’t stable enough to be a daily driver. Used ThinkPads are the golden standard for cheap and friendly here.
Early 2010’s MacBooks also make excellent Linux machines.
Dell sells Linux laptops too don’t they?
Every laptop manufacturers sell linux laptops they just dont know it.
Framework is a bit different, it has direct support for their hardware drivers on many linux distros and endorses linux to be installed on their laptops.
OP doesn’t want to pay the extra $120 for an OS he’s never gonna use. Yes everyone sells a Linux laptop but there’s a few companies that won’t charge you for Windows on top of that.
Thank you, it seems the point of this meme is lost on some Lemmings :D
Dell isn’t paying anywhere near $120 for windows. Only end users buying a one off license pay that much.
Right . . . but Dell ship select models with Ubuntu preinstalled, these certified devices come with their OEM package which has support for their drivers, etc. and obvs by selling them with Linux, they are endorsing it on their select models of laptops as well.
Never knew that.
They’ve been doing it for a very long time now. I’m currently using a 2015 model, Dell Tablet. It has Linux support. Cost me about $250 (with a copy of W10 Pro), a few years back. I also got it with the hard shell keyboard dock, effectively making it a net book.
It’s been a great device, but probably isn’t what OP is looking for.
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As does Dell, HP and Lenovo.
I can speak for Dells excellent Linux support with LVFS support and a responsive support structure.
Yes, but all the budget laptops from them I can find don’t have that option. Only a few select higher-end gaming models come with Linux.
Save money and buy a better machine later.
Especially now that they’re selling refurbished models at a heavy discount, you can get into the Framework ecosystem pretty easily and upgrade the mainboard later.
Not to be that “aktchually” guy, but Microsoft actually ends up paying OEM’s to ship with Windows, in order to drive costs down to be more affordable than competitors. You can still reimage with Linux, which I know, is an extra step from it shipping with Linux, but in a wild turn of events, we can thank Microsoft for driving down the prices of our to-be-Linux machines ;)
Have never seen this as a consumer though. I remember buying a laptop 10 years ago without OS since it was cheaper than same model with preinstalled Windows. Checked a random laptop and same still applies, version with Windows costs 30 eur more in my local webshop for what seems to be the same model with same specifications (No English available, use translate if needed):
You can add framework laptops to that list too.
To have windows you pay extra, no os is free
I think that was only true back in the 90s, when there were still other OSes to compete against Windows, like OS/2, Solaris and BeOS late in the decade. Once Microsoft effectively dominated the consumer PC market (2000s?), they turned around to threaten to never do business with OEMs that dared to bundle competitors’ OS. They also did something similar in Japan, which destroyed NEC (who created the PC-88 and PC-98, the most popular 80s and early 90s computers there) dominance.
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I haven’t met a Linux user that would consider leaving the factory installed OS instead of immediately blowing it out and installing their own
This route does still count as a Windows sale and you still pay for the license.
So if the manufacturer offers a “no os” option, rather than any Linux option, it’s still a better choice than “Windows” if you know you will reimage to something else anyway.
Friend: “What’s your system specs?”
Me: “12-core Ryzen CPU, 64GB RAM, 3080ti GPU”
F: “Nice. What games do you play?”
M: “Games…? Is that what else people do with these things?”
These days it’s not uncommon to have a powerful GPU just for AI acceleration.
Or for photo editing. Or video editing. Or CAD work. Or a lot more stuff.
Are modern iGPUs not powerful enough for these tasks? The UHD 770 is pretty powerful, especially for video encoding/decoding (it can transcode 8+ 4K streams simultaneously)
For photo editing, I suspect it should be more than enough. For video editing, a beefy graphics card can make the render/encode significantly faster, though as I don’t dabble with that, I can’t tell how much of a speed improvement it’d be from an integrated intel vs. anything equivalent or stronger than a GTX1650
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iGPUs are pretty useless for the most part.
- Shared memory. Regular DDR is high latency high throuput. GDDR is low latency low throuput. Not only you’re sharing memory with other apps, you’re also penalising yourself in terms of performance.
- iGPUs are very slow at computation. Yes, they have codecs built-in, but if you want to run custom math they are not much better than running it on CPU.
- CUDA is not available. OpenCL is, but some apps are locked to CUDA.
- Old GTX 1080 is 5.5 times faster than brand new Iris Xe at computation. RTX 4080 is like 3x times faster than GTX 1080. That’s an order of magnitude difference between modern GPU and modern iGPU.
That makes sense. Thanks.
“Your laptop’s sticker price already includes windows license fee. You’re welcome!”
– Microsoft
Don’t normal countries rebate the fee when you ask for a systemless PC?
In Europe, laptops without an operating system (often referred to as DOS installed) are available. Prices start from 300 EUR.
I am in Europe but these laptops are rare in the low price end unfortunately.
Perhaps it depends on the country. In any case, I recommend buying the laptop that suits you best in terms of price and not paying attention to the operating system. I just set a filter in the online store for “Ryzen 5” and I don’t see any difference in price between laptops with Windows and laptops without the operating system. It’s better to find out how well the laptop supports Linux.
The bigger issue for me is every device advertised to be linux based and privacy oriented is >400$ usually around 700-800$
I understand that tech savy IT people are usually financially cushy enough that they can eat a almost thousand dollar bill on their laptop and not think twice about it but man I just can’t ever see myself willing to shell out that much cash for a fancy laptop with physical kill switches or modularbility. Bring that price tag down a couple hundred dollars system 76 and Purism, then well talk. Until then the dude on ebay selling librebooted ghostpads are more likely to get my money.
I’m pretty sure modulerabilty is not a word, but who’s counting. You can get an ok spec laptop for around $500 if you don’t mind the build (thin or fancy). As far as privacy goes it’s all within your hands, skipping a select few data hungry manufacturers no-one restricts you from installing your favourite kali
A lot of the time you aren’t actually paying for the license afaik. If you look at a pre built and spec it out on PC part picker, the pre built can often come at a lower price bc the PC is subsidized with payment from the bloatware that is pre installed (think McAfee). Microsoft also sells the licenses in bulk to the store for huge discounts. Windows business model is a lot more about selling you 365 and your data than the operating system.
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buy from the official website, you can select “no operating system” there. (did that last time from Lenovo’s site)
They only offer that option for some models. For everything else, you have to select the Windows version with no added cost, and just eat the loss of the baked-in Windows tax.
please share how I can configure a T14 AMD Gen 4 with “no operating system”
cuz I have never seen “no operating system” on Lenovo’s site and I’ve bought three thinkpads from them in the past four years!
I couldn’t find that either. I did find this page for Linux options but only has one laptop. https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops/?visibleDatas=857%3A14" - 14.9"%2C15" - 16.9"
is it a region locked thing, i can select it from the german site: “Schau mal hier Junge” https://www.lenovo.com/de/de/configurator/cto/index.html?bundleId=21K3CTO1WWDE2
The US store only has Windows 11 Home and Windows 11 Pro.
There are new laptops without os preinstalled (freedos actually installed) i bought my hp255g8 Ryzen 5700u laptop few years ago that way
My laptop came preinstalled with Linux :)
Get a used ThinkPad, OP
Have two already.
Damn that’s more than me (I have 1)
It would be cheaper also
For them. They would just widen the margin and charge you just as much.
That wasn’t my experience buying a laptop, but it could be possible
Here in the EU there are a few companies selling rebranded Tongfang or Clevo barebones without an OS. Some are Linux-oriented like Tuxedo, Slimbook or LaptopmetLinux, some are general-purpose or gaming oriented like Schenker/XMG.
Slimbook Elemental 14 start at around 600€, Tuxedo Aura 14 starts at around 840€ for what looks to be the same SKU but a bit more storage.
Where are you located and what’s your budget ? It might help point you in the right direction.
Check out system76
A little overpriced but nice hardware and support
I’ve got a System76 Pangolin. It’s ok for the price (a bit pricey).I’m going with frame.work next though - while frame.work is even pricier, the upgradability is to die for.
