The bodies of 109 Palestinians including 23 children and 11 women were taken to Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, and spokesperson Khalil Degran told the Associated Press that more than 100 wounded also arrived to the hospital. In addition, he said the rest of the 210 Palestinians killed were taken to Al-Awda Hospital after the spokesman said he spoke to the director there. But the numbers at that hospital could not be confirmed by the AP.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to continue the war until all hostages are freed, but Bassem Naim, a senior Hamas official now based in Lebanon, struck a drastically different tone.
“The horrific massacre committed today by Netanyahu and his fascist government against the Palestinian people in Gaza, which led to slaughter of 210 and more than 400 wounded so far — under the pretext of liberating those detained by the resistance — confirms what the resistance has said repeatedly: that Netanyahu doesn’t plan to reach an agreement to stop the war and free the captured Israelis peacefully,” Naim said, according to the Associated Press.
It’s really hard to take either of them seriously because both have been known to lie through their teeth and blatantly violated the rules of war.
It’s almost certain that the truth of what happened will never be known for certain, because basically none of the parties to this conflict have any credibility whatsoever.
Well we could have independent journalists but Israel won’t allow any in and shoots them often.
Correct, and that’s very much part of the problem. We have very unreliable information about the state of the war. They stop journalists to prevent information from getting out, and they succeeded.
Historically the figures released by the Palestinian health system have been acknowledged as pretty accurate. From the Telegraph : “In previous rounds of fighting in the Strip, the total number of deaths reported by the Gazan authorities have been found to be broadly accurate, not differing significantly from estimates produced by the UN or IDF. There have, however, always been disputes over the civilian/combatant split.”
I don’t doubt the accuracy of those figures but when it comes to things like Israel accusing Hamas of using human shields or setting up bases inside schools and Hamas saying “nuh uh”, without photo or video proof it’s hard to say either way.
I see your point. I tend to believe the Palestinian figures simply because they have a history of being reasonably accurate with casualty numbers and the IDF has a history of lying or at least playing down casualties
I don’t believe it is correct to call them “Palestinian” figures. There is no unified government in Palestine. There is a collection of multiple organisations exercising various amounts of authority over the Palestinian territories. The figures from the Gaza Health Ministry regarding civilian casualties are probably close to reality. But that doesn’t mean anything else is accurate. I give credibility to the Gaza Health Ministry on the topic of civilian death counts and other related humanitarian figures only.
Whichever noun you use to describe them is fine by me.
Bro you know why Israel is certain they’re doing it right? Because they took out from proto isrealis who stashed weapons and bases in or under holy sites, hospitals and schools.
Look into Operation Shark, the largest weapons bust being inside the great synagogue.
With one, you have to be cautious against infrequent exaggeration. With the other, you have to work your way through their constant denial. Both are not on point in scale of truth, and both can be used to completely subvert it for some intended purposes, but I think one is closer to the truth more frequently and by a lot than the other.
You can definitely pick the exaggerating side to start with, then work your way to the truth as much as you can from there and you’d be closer to it than starting with the other one, having a lower rate of going astray.
Amazing how reportedly 0 combatants were killed while this rescue happened.
At least one IDF soldier was killed.
The Hamas dead isn’t counted separately from the civilians. Never have been. The casualty numbers you see reported is always civilians + Hamas.
Hamas doesn’t wear uniforms, so it’s difficult for a third party to make an assessment on how many combatants have been killed in this war. Also there’s a war happening, so that makes things difficult even when the combatants are all wearing uniforms.
how many had weapons?
Don’t check the serial numbers on the weapons tho 👉👈
They have weapons stashed all over the place so they can blend in with the civilian population when changing positions. Which is why they don’t wear uniforms.
Smart strategy… if you don’t have any concern for the lives of civilians. Which Hamas doesn’t.
No it’s a great strategy either way we just generally assume the other side isn’t jumping with glee to murder indiscriminately.
Yes Hamas wants the IDF to kill indiscriminately. It’s why they don’t wear uniforms. That’s the whole point of how they operate.
You’re missing the point. The general idea is that an modern organized army would not fire into civilians, you know morality being a thing and all. The IDF doing it anyway proves Hamas point, they’re not seen as people by the Israeli government anymore. You wouldn’t fire indiscriminately into a crowd a sheep to kill the wolf, why would you do the same with people.
The point you’re missing is that the tactics of Hamas has resulted in the IDF not being able to distinguish civilians from combatants. There’s a reason why non-uniformed combatants are considered differently (they’re basically just criminals) under international law than uniformed combatants. Because everyone knows when wars are fought by combatants who don’t wear uniforms, there’s a massive increase in civilian casualties.
You’re a 19 year old in a truck and someone is running towards you as fast as they can. You have seconds to determine whether that person is a civilian desperate to get food, or a combatant that’s running towards you to kill you. Both the civilians and the combatants are dressed in the exact same style of clothing. You’re scared and have seconds to make a decision that will either end someone else’s life or end your own life. What happens next?
You can’t understand why it’s criminal for combatants to not wear uniforms? If Hamas cared about their people they’d be wearing uniforms. But Hamas has successfully monetized the deaths of Palestinian civilians which is why they do what they do.
so the children were killed because…?
Because Hamas cowards deliberately fire at an enemy army for locations where there are children.
“In international news, the equivalent of five Americans were killed in Afghanistan today”
– The Onion, 2008
It’s up to 274 dead now.
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1799715089936761144
Purportedly one of the hostages was being held in the house of an Al-Jazeera journalist/writer/editor and several members of his family were killed while trying to prevent the hostage from being rescued.
EDIT: Turns out he wasn’t an employee of Al-Jazeera, but he wrote opinion pieces for them.
EDIT 2: New article https://www.yahoo.com/news/al-jazeera-denies-connection-journalist-194749492.html - It seems that the female hostage was not the one being held at this location, but rather the three men were. The location is an apartment building and the hostages were being held on the 3rd floor while the journalist was living on the first floor. The claim that the journalist and his family were killed comes from a European based Hamas affiliate.
EDIT 3: Another article - https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-confirms-abdallah-aljamal-was-holding-3-hostages-in-his-home-in-nuseirat-alongside-his-family/ - I don’t read Hebrew, but it looks like IDF is confirming that the journalist and his family were the ones holding the hostages, not just someone in the same building.
EDIT 4: Looks like the US media has gotten hold of the story finally, but it’s mostly NY Post and Fox news. Looks like they’re behind the times because they’re just running the Al-Jazeera angle.
Oof Google that name and you get basically zero trustworthy news articles either way. Does “purportedly” even count when it’s from twitter? Sounds terrible but I’ll wait for a real source
Did you Google the name? Because if you had you’d realize it’s not a news organization and they don’t make news articles. OSINT stands for Open Source Intelligence, it’s basically a discord group of people in the intelligence sector posting things they have heard going on. Looking at their Twitter they seem to cover just about anything and everything, they have stuff about Ukraine, Gaza, France, UAE, Venezuela, etc. Looking for other stories it looks like they beat mainstream media to the story by about 10 hrs.
Looking into the claim itself, it seems that it originated from Israel, but Al-Jazeera’s response isn’t that the guy is innocent but rather that he never worked for them
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-805525
Turns out that the guy had written opinion pieces for Al-Jazeera and he mainly worked for the Palestine Chronicle, which is based out of Washington state. It looks like his information was included on Al-JAzeera because he had written opinion pieces, but wasn’t actually employed by them. Take that for what you will, but it doesn’t change the narrative much.
Turns out that the guy had written opinion pieces for Al-Jazeera and he mainly worked for the Palestine Chronicle
So, basically, the tweet is false, as it strongly implies that he was a photojournalist, writer, and editor at Al Jazeera. Certainly you agree because you outright made the claim. On top of that, your link clearly states, and I quote, that they are “unverified rumors that hostage Noa Argamani had been held at his home in central Gaza’s Nuseirat.” Why would al Jazeera make a claim that he wasn’t protecting him if they don’t know? But I don’t even see a link to their denial, so I’m not sure what they actually said.
No offense, but your post makes me very suspect of your implicit claims that this twitter account is in anyway reliable.
Eh, I wouldn’t say it’s false. The description of the guy comes from Al-Jazeera’s website where they say he is a reporter and photojournalist and he did write for Al-Jazeera. If Al-Jazeera is going to post his work and list his information on their website I think it’s understandable that people might think he is employed by them.
As for the attack being unverified, the other link I provided stated that the IDF confirmed that address and house (which is time stamped after the article you are referencing). Additionally, a third party who is identified as a Hamas operative in Europe was referenced as a source for these claims in both articles. I don’t know how much more confirmed you can get unless you’re holding out for Anderson Cooper to be live from the living room?
Finally, I haven’t seen anywhere that Al-Jazeera is denying he was doing anything, the only thing they appear to be denying is that he was employed by them. Even then, Al-Jazeera doesn’t seem to be making any articles about the guy, the whole thing was correspondence with representatives of Al-Jazeera, this stuff happened so recently I wouldn’t be surprised if Al-Jazeera hasn’t had time to post anything yet. For context, this information is <24 hours old, the first US article I see about it was only posted an hour ago.
I think it’s understandable that people might think he is employed by them.
Wait, we are claiming this some kind of intelligence community…but it’s understandable that they can’t even figure out if this guy works for al Jazeera? You’ll have to help me square this.
But my claim is that the statement is false, not that they intentionally misled, so even if they were understandably confused, that still seems to be untrue.
I don’t know how much more confirmed you can get unless you’re holding out for Anderson Cooper to be live from the living room?
I have no need to rush to a conclusion on this. I’m just reporting what one of your links said. In your attempt to rush to a conclusion, you already were convinced of a falsehood. Maybe you should slow down too.
Even then, Al-Jazeera doesn’t seem to be making any articles about the guy
I can’t help but read your points as attempting to paint al Jazeera as some bad guy in this whole thing. How long ago was this tweet that is from some group that you claim is 10 hours ahead of the news? And we’re being critical of al Jazeera for not rushing out an article in that time?
But my claim is that the statement is false, not that they intentionally misled, so even if they were understandably confused, that still seems to be untrue.
But it isn’t inaccurate, that’s the thing. The Twitter post says, “a Photojournalist and Writer/Editor for both Al-Jazeera and the Palestinian Chronicle.” That is factually true…
claiming this some kind of intelligence community…but it’s understandable that they can’t even figure out if this guy works for al Jazeera? You’ll have to help me square this.
The group is a discord channel for people in the intelligence sector, I don’t know what you need squared about that. Take it for what it is, an early alert gossip mill by people who hear things before most other people do.
I have no need to rush to a conclusion on this. I’m just reporting what one of your links said. In your attempt to rush to a conclusion, you already were convinced of a falsehood. Maybe you should slow down too.
I haven’t rushed to any conclusions, I’ve been sharing news articles as they come out.
I can’t help but read your points as attempting to paint al Jazeera as some bad guy in this whole thing.
Whether you pay them or not, posting articles from potential terrorists isn’t a good look. The same can be said about any media group associating with terrorists, the same happened with CNN, NY Times, and Associated Press on October 7th.
How long ago was this tweet that is from some group that you claim is 10 hours ahead of the news? And we’re being critical of al Jazeera for not rushing out an article in that time?
Not sure why you’re asking me when something was posted when I shared the link to it, that’s just lazy. I never criticized Al-Jazeera for not publishing a response, I simply stated that they haven’t, and my response about that was even understanding that not much time has passed?
I think you’re the one rushing to conclusions and should slow down.
I meant I googled the name of the person the tweet called out. Not much out there from verified sources is what I was saying. I think a paid for twitter check is probably a negative in the trustworthy dept. Thanks for the extra info though. It just all seems to be a one sided narrative at this point.
Ah ok, my apologies. Yeah, there’s not much in the way of mainstream international news picking this story up. Pretty much it was just Israel saying they raided XYZ houses, these are the people they found inside. Individuals made the connection to Al-Jazeera and mainstream Israeli media picked it up, but they’ve backed off a bit once Al-Jazeera clarified.
I’d generally agree with a general dislike of Twitter supporters, but no one has really stepped up to fill in Twitters void (at least that get the same level of traction as Twitter). Paying the Twitter tax still seems to get your information out faster and farther than almost any other alternative. I think the only way Twitter is going to fully fall will be if it no longer is profitable to run, otherwise large groups will continue to use it. One positive is that people seem to be diversifying from Twitter with Lemmy, Mastadon, Reddit, or something else (I guess Discord falls in the something else).
Now if you’re just a regular person and paying for Twitter blue then I agree that you’re probably not trustworthy or at least a bit stupid.
Removed by mod
A fair enough assessment for the adults in the room.
What about the children?
As sad as it is, they’re not Israel’s responsibility. It’s Israel’s responsibility to minimize their deaths, but not to keep them safe. That’s on Hamas/whoever gets control of Gaza after this war.
they’re not Israel’s responsibility.
Of course not, hasbara. Absolutely nothing about the genocide Israel is perpetrating is Israel’s responsibility.
None at all.
Minimising civilian casualties is literally their responsibility under international law
And that’s also literally what I wrote. You just repeated my sentence. Nice.
Minimizing ≠ keeping them safe. Read my comment again.
The post you were responding to was about the death of children. We are talking about casualties, not pastoral care
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
He looks surprisingly well-fed.
Yeah, usually you wanna feed your human bargain, so you know, they’ll get better deals out of them.
Don’t excuse terrorists for feeding their victims.
The point was that Gazans are starving. Somebody has enough food. Who in Gaza currently has all the food?
Hamas…
Holy shit… this place is lousy with pro-genocide hasbara.
And it seems the mods are perfectly fine with that… as usual.
Damn you were right. Scrolled down a bit and they were all over. Did Hasbara finally find Lemmy, or had there been a new wave of propagandized redditors leaving to come here?
They’ve been here pretty much since the backlash against Israel began. Some communities have managed to get on top of it and drive them out… but it seems some mod teams are either slow on the uptake or have allowed Israeli sympathizers into their ranks - it’s unfortunately a consequence of liberal “every-opinion-must-be-treated-as-equal” thinking.
Wait why is everyone being reasonable and not virtue signaling!? Did I die and leave this hellscape called Lemmy!?
Another win for lowering our carbon footprint
Well all those people definitely weren’t just civilians. Why would civilians be holding hostages? That means those people were combats. That’s a good thing then.
The children too?
While not all of them were combatants, it only makes sense that Hamas would hold civilians in direct danger because they can’t win otherwise. IDF would wipe the floor with Hamas in direct conflict as Israel’s military power is far greater than Hamas, so Hamas is resorting to using civilians to prevent military action around their territory. Hamas then can use this against Israel in a lawfare sense when netanyahu attacks.
The issue ultimately is the intentional presence of civilians in these active military areas. Normally you wouldn’t bomb schools, but when Hamas sets up shop in these typically protected areas and starts launching missiles from them they start losing that protection. This is a win-win for Hamas, they can call Israel out for being reckless if they’re attacked and use down time to recuperate when Israel is restrained. Though, if you can’t win without subjecting your own people to your own deliberate war crimes, I think you have an obligation to surrender, you clearly don’t have your own people’s interest at heart.
So, sure one could say “what else is Hamas supposed to do? They’re outgunned, how else are they supposed to fight?” Answer is you don’t. Hamas shouldn’t have attacked in October and made the choice to subsequently hide behind civilians, they should surrender for the better of Palestinians.
There’s nowhere else for Hamas to set up. There’s civilians in all of Gaza. It’s an extremely densely populated region, even more so now that it’s being cleared and destroyed. Second, Hamas was created in response to Israeli aggression that already existed. Surrendering would just bring them to the status quo that inspired the First Intifada, when Palestinians were still being attacked, killed, restricted, oppressed, and their land steadily taken for more than 20 years already. People don’t respond well to that and to expect them to sit there and being slowly ethnically cleansed again is unrealistic. The correct take is to oppose Israel and it’s settler colonialism.
If you actually think this is a settler vs native thing you are cherry picking your history lessons.
It sounds like the opposite. Do you even know what Zionism is? It’s calling for a place Jews from all over the world can go via. They bring in people from all over the world, lots of them have dual citizenships. Because Jewish people can trace genealogic origins there from thousands of years ago doesn’t make some lady from Europe or New York the same as some local Palestinian kid at all. They then kick out the natives and give their homes to these settlers. They’ve been doing it since the 40’s. People can look over the wall and see where they, their parents, or their grandparents used to live.
I recommend looking up the history of Zionism, including the European Jews that forwarded it, like Theodore Herzl, and the different places they considered for it (Uganda,Argentina, Cyprus, etc) before settling on Palestine.
Don’t cherry pick now. Go farther back.
The original homeland of the Jewish people is the region historically known as the Land of Israel, also referred to as Canaan, and later as Palestine. This area is located in the modern-day state of Israel, as well as parts of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and Gaza Strip), and parts of neighboring countries such as Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. Historically significant cities in this region include Jerusalem, Hebron, and Bethlehem.
But with that logic, my friends have the right to go to Italy and Ireland, kick out native Italians and Irish and take their houses, because they’re Italian-American or Irish-American. That’s not how it works or how it should work. Its the same reason I wouldn’t have supported the Liberia project of having African-Americans go back to Africa and kick out and oppress the natives just because they were mistreated in the US, if I was alive at the time. It led to centuries of indigenous oppression and civil wars, like Israel and Palestine nowadays. We shouldn’t be looking to imitate that level of colonial superiority anywhere else.
You’re right looking at this situation like it about settlers and natives is totally silly.