Federal immigration agents swarm Minneapolis high school, handcuff staff and fire chemical irritants at students. Safety concerns prompt school closure.
For all the larpers here demanding violent response, here’s the link to Judge Karen Immergut’s final decision of November 7, 2025 kicking the National Guard out of Portland, Oregon.
You don’t have to read the whole thing. In fact, you don’t have to read more than the first (long) paragraph to understand that the courts are still largely defending the Constitution, and that it was the lack of violent response to Trump’s provocations that caused her to rule against keeping the National Guard in Portland. I’ve added line breaks, but this is the first paragraph:
On September 27, 2025, the President of the United States federalized 200 members of the Oregon National Guard over the objection of Oregon’s governor and deployed them to a single federal building in Portland, Oregon. In the ensuing days, the President ordered the deployment of 400 federalized members of the Texas and California National Guards, all to the same federal building in Oregon. The mission of these deployments of military troops was ostensibly to quell violent protests outside the one-block Immigration and Customs Enforcement (“ICE”) building in Portland.
But after a three-day trial that included the testimony of federal, state, and local law enforcement officials and hundreds of exhibits describing protest activity outside the Portland ICE building, the evidence demonstrates that these deployments, which were objected to by Oregon’s governor and not requested by the federal officials in charge of protection of the ICE building, exceeded the President’s authority.
While violent protests did occur in June, they quickly abated due to the efforts of civil law enforcement officers. And since that brief span of a few days in June, the protests outside the Portland ICE facility have been predominately peaceful, with only isolated and sporadic instances of relatively low-level violence, largely between protesters and counter-protesters.
When considering these conditions that persisted for months before the President’s federalization of the National Guard, this Court concludes that even giving great deference to the President’s determination, the President did not have a lawful basis to federalize the National Guard under 10 U.S.C. § 12406.(emphases and line breaks added by me)
And then, specifically BECAUSE of the non-violent response of Portland, in every successive paragraph Judge Immergut labeled the order to move the National Guard into Portland UNLAWFUL.
A violent response is NOT the answer at this point in time. I guarantee we will ALL know when it is. Save your shot.
In the meantime, my fellow countrymen, beware of larpers who don’t even live in the US, much less in Minneapolis, trying to whip up rage and get people to fight. It’s not their blood that will be shed, not their families destroyed, not the last shreds of their democracy thrown into the cesspit of an impotent orange excrescence’s lust for power and unending greed: it will be our own.
If you’re here to say you think people should fight, all you’re really telling me is that you’ve never had to fight, you don’t know how it works, you won’t be the one to pay the price in your own blood, AND you want Trump to consolidate his power even faster than he already is by giving him reason to occupy cities with the National Guard, declare martial law, and avoid having midterm elections. Think twice.
Canadian here: it is important to us that you resist your fascist regime. We need you to do that just as much you need to do that for yourselves. It is also extremely important to deeply understand that resistance is NOT a binary switch that flips between “nothing” and “armed resistance”. At this stage in the game, in the US, you guys need to be doing a whole lot more of non-armed and institutional resistance. You need extreme pettiness. Make the trumpofascists pay a price in annoyance every step of the fucking way.
Then, the question goes to the mayors the ones that bluster with “gtfo ICE”. Why are they not doing road reconstruction in front and round ICE facilities? Why are there no incessant pipe maintenance requests at the sewers and cables and water mains that feed those compounds? RATFUCK THEM.
Then the question goes to the merchants. Why are there no “we don’t sell to ICE” signs on shops around their compounds? Why is it commercially viable to NOT have a policy like that? Why are they contracting work to them? Why is any private entity in the ICE supply chain not being constantly threatened with boycotts and divestment? MAKE IT TOXIC TO WORK WITH THEM.
Do I need to keep going, or do people get the idea?
Beyond that, realize that you have to start small, then build up: https://youtu.be/vvaquOcNEKI Armed resistance is the worst case scenario endgame. Not the start.
As an outsider; there’s always plenty of trolls out there, but I think a lot of the recent calls for violence stem from tons of people outside being really scared right now. The head of the state of USA just kidnapped a leader of another nation in a military operation and is threatening to attack and conquer part of another sovereign state, which even has been allied with USA for a long time. So from Europe especially it looks like your country has turned on us and become a real threat, and you are lead by unhinged megalomaniac controlling the worlds largest army, that might actually do as he says; collapse NATO and start another great war.
Seeing video footage of someone being brutally murdered by the state has truly shocked people in my country as well - something like that is incredibly alarming, and combined with your leaders threats of war, to us it basically looks like fascists have taken over your country already. Considering the history of ww2 and the rise of nazis is still well known and remembered in Europe, it’s easy to jump into conclusions about where this seems to be leading into, since we are barely getting news about any resistance happening.
All this combined with scared people thus logically ends up with pleas to do anything to stop ww3 from happening, since it is your country threatening to start it
I agree with every word you wrote. Now imagine being a citizen of that country that is threatening WWIII in your name. and completely against your will while all around you its adherents act like they’re in a cult and babble sound bites and nonsense at you while you watch them work toward blowing the world up.
You have no idea how many of us are on your side, because even our media goes at the worst of these excesses with a “both sides the same” approach. I personally am terrified, but I’m old enough to know that wars always last longer than people think they will. Save your shot and use it for maximum effect.
Protests do work; violence does not. We’ve had a lot of violent protests in the US in the last few years, but none of them are viewed as successes. There’s a reason for that. Getting people riled up to do stupid things helps no one but the oppressor. Cop City was built for this, and they started that what, ten years ago? That’s how long they’ve been preparing. And Alligator Alcatraz has thousands of beds . . . for deportees? No. Deportees get deported, you don’t hold them. They waited until the infrastructure was ready, and now they are so prepared for anyone who wants to go violent, because they want that, and will use that to declare martial law. And we, the resistance, is only just starting!
What we need and want is for the fence-sitters among us to join the protest, and that does not happen with violence. Violence repels the non-involved and gives them a reason to turn away.
Calls to violence that lead to violence are exactly what this regime wants. Why do you advocate giving them anything at all? There are many ways to manage emotions that do not involve calling other people to fight in the streets. If we see violence in the streets, that means the regime is fully in place and we are now under martial law: in that instance everyone should fight as much as they want.
But until then, be wise. This is only the beginning. If anyone wants to make a REAL difference, then instead of calling for others to shed their blood for you, you decide what you can do where you are, using what you have, to make a start. If you’re not in the US it really helps when YOU protest! And of course here we can each do what we can. We haven’t even tried a general strike, and that would be our next best step.
Our country has already fallen to fascists. That happened. Otherwise all this wouldn’t be happening. People need to accept that and start organizing before he starts WW3, which he very well.may have already.
In the meantime, my fellow countrymen, beware of larpers who don’t even live in the US, much less in Minneapolis, trying to whip up rage and get people to fight.
This bears repeating. I’ve seen it in every political thread here on lemmy.world for the last year. Every, single, time, some troll crashes into the thread and promotes escalation and violence. And every time someone takes the bait and gets into an argument, swamping half the visible comment area, effectively pushing out any sane discourse about a smarter way to deal with this. It’s hard to see it happen with such regularity and not imagine this to be calculated and deliberate.
To this I say: let’s treat our political forum spaces like a protest. Stay civil. Call out provocateurs but don’t engage directly. Downvote and report to admins. Freeze these trolls out of the conversation, and let’s keep putting our heads together.
Thank you for saying this. I do not believe any of them are posting in good faith, and when challenged rely on logical fallacies and emotionally charged non-factual or barely factual statements.
They’re here solely to inflame and incite. No other conclusion left to draw.
It might depend on how we define “good faith”, but I think some of them are probably posting in good faith — though good intentions don’t negate the harm they do, of course. I get the sense that some of the people trying to incite violent action are feeling overwhelmed and powerless due to being so far away from what is happening. I say this as someone who isn’t an American, and thus can only spectate with horror as American politics continues going to hell, with ripple effects on the rest of the world.
It’s easy to rile people up when it’s not your neck on the line though. However uncomfortable it is to be spectating what’s happening in the US, you guys have it much worse. It would be nice to imagine that this is the kind of thing that could be solved through one, big push of violent resistance, but with how deep MAGA cronies have gotten their talons into US politics, resistance will necessarily require thinking of the long game. Violent resistance, when deployed unwisely, can end up serving the ends of the oppressor.
I tend to agree. I’m trying my level best to approach the entire situation with as much humanism and empathy as I can muster. That said, I’ve become a bit more bold in asking for honest follow-up from these folks: what’s the plan, what have you done to prepare, what practical things can the rest of us do, and how will you survive the violent uprising you endorse? I’ve watched others try this as well. So far, it’s just been radio silence every time. While not direct evidence, my experience so far is that these troll-like comments strongly resemble bad-faith arguments, as their authors disengage when I attempt to solicit details and/or de-escalate the conversation.
I get the sense that some of the people trying to incite violent action are feeling overwhelmed and powerless due to being so far away from what is happening.
I agree with this, and it shames me that my own humanity is dulled enough by constant challenges to consider it secondary. But a core part of what us anti-fascists actually tend to agree about is that words matter. I’d take it a step further and say that en masse we are individually creating change whether for better or worse, whether we acknowledge we have that power or not.
So when we incite others, we are making the problem bigger even in spite of ourselves, even as much as we claim to want the opposite (a return to sane leadership and at least superficially courteous discourse).
And that’s beyond the obvious logistics: these people arguing for violent resistance never say where or when or how they’d like others to fight, but those of us who have actually been to protests that got heated know it’s not that simple. Agents provocateurs are everywhere, because they want it to get violent, the administration wants to be able to run headlines that paint resistors as disgruntled agitators and hoodlums and troublemakers, not your neighbor or your coworker or your boss. Anything to dehumanize and label “the other”, and violent protests deliver us all up to that end. As soon as we are labeled, we cease to matter.
Compounding this problem, Americans have been firehosed with propaganda and mass manipulation from every direction for over a decade now, including mainstream media. The atmosphere here now is much what I have read of pre-WWII Germany: tight, cautious, foreboding, grim. And angry. Extremely angry. So when I see people who want to light a match to it, it’s almost impossible for me to see that as an act of good faith.
In the meantime, for all the media focus on this unconscionable murder of a citizen just trying to get home (apparently she was shot on the same street she lived) the existing cracks in the administration’s attempts to consolidate power are widening. I’d point you to Heather Cox Richardson, who mentioned in her chat today what the media is downplaying: that the Dems finally pushed through a vote on the healthcare subsidies today, and they got it through on a discharge petition because over a dozen Republicans voted for it in spite of Trump’s threats and Mike Johnson’s best efforts to keep it from a vote. The House is also set to overturn two Trump vetoes (one of which is a Trump revenge veto against Lauren Boebert of Colorado for standing firm on the Epstein files). EDITED to add that they failed to overturn the vetoes, but did get a War Powers Act resolution up for a vote through the Senate, meaning that they will vote on whether further action in Venezuela has to be approved by Congress. This was aided by five Republicans who voted with the Dems.
All of that is a big deal. This complicit Congress, without whom Trump would have nothing, are now working across the aisle on multiple issues in spite of him. Even Minnesota is standing firm and telling the feds that the ICE thug who shot Ms. Good can in fact be charged with murder by the state, and there’s really nothing the feds can do about it. The Supreme Court can only rule on what comes before it; meanwhile, lower courts are overturning his efforts right and left.
In short, he is losing power faster than he can consolidate it, and when it comes right down to it, his goons shot a woman whose only crime was trying to get home from dropping her son off at school. When American beliefs have shifted away from a prevailing wind, it has often been because of a victim like Ms. Good that we can all relate to. Again, the firehose of lies is flooding the media with their alternative narrative, but those videos are circulating faster than they can be shut down – and even the videos only exist because sane individuals were out there blowing whistles to let their neighbors know that ICE was there to begin with. That’s where real change happens, and where true power lies: with the individual.
So yeah. I can’t tell you how bad it is here right now: it is beyond anything I have ever experienced. But resistance is popping up everywhere, and outside of the roughly 20%-25% that are always going to support authoritarian rule in any society, there is no real support for him. That’s another reason why I’d tell people here to incite violence to knock it off: they could actually be part of the growing resistance if they let go of the rage and think about what’s next. Wisdom and rage rarely accomplish the same thing, and we’ve only just started to fight back. Anyone who wants to fight in the street will likely have their opportunity to do so, unfortunately. But right now it will only fuel the oppressor.
Thank you for your courteous reply; I was kind of shocked to see it, honestly. I appreciate it, more than you know.
Seriously, thank you for that writeup. I clung to every word, and it inspired hope.
While the prevailing hivemind narrative is that people are “doing nothing” while Nero plays his fiddle, that’s clearly not actually the case, and inspires me to be way more politically active.
Thank you again for the discourse and taking the time to educate people. You’re doing good work. God bless and stay safe out there. <3
What a mic-drop shutdown of a response. DAMN. Lol!
You’re totally right with that approach. Asking rational questions that bypass kneejerk violence-monkey emotions tends to not get a valid response.
I’m also wary of all these “Well go start a fight or you don’t actually care” posts. They’re typical keyboard-warrior nonsense and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were bots at this point, as there would be a lot of value in flooding every communication platform imaginable with this rhetoric until it does something to legitimize tyranny. This would be trivial for any nation-state or even competent fringe group to pull off.
What a mic-drop shutdown of a response. DAMN. Lol!
Thanks? It’s a rather childish clap-back, so I’ll laugh with you either way if it’s sarcasm or not. ;) That said, I really don’t like the idea that someone that actually knows how to write being accused of being a bot; I won’t stand for AI poisoning legitimate creativity along with the rest.
This would be trivial for any nation-state or even competent fringe group to pull off.
I really try to avoid fringe, conspiracy, magical, or otherwise just-universe-fallacy thinking if I can help it. But the copium on this is very, very real though, which makes rational thought in this area very hard. So I could be dead wrong here. Take this all with all the salt it takes to clear a Michigan freeway in January.
So, I keep combing back to that realization too. I think that chaos is easy to create if you press hard on existing social rifts, and has an outrageously good cost:benefit ratio if you can just inject yourself into everyday discourse from 10,000 miles away.
EDITED TO ADD: This is a 22-hour old account, whose only content is the above comment containing a misguided pastiche of current and historical points designed to produce an emotional response. This is exactly the kind of larper Americans need to be aware of.
Sometimes? No, always. The cost is ALWAYS blood. People have ALREADY died. It’s you who are naive.
I just posted the court order: BECAUSE Portland did not resist violently, the National Guard is no longer there.
Getting violent because someone is trying to get you to become violent is the most stupid thing you can do.
It’s not hard to run on rage. What’s infinitely more difficult is to suppress the rage until you know your enraged actions will have the maximum benefit. Right now, non-violence is having the maximum benefit.
It helps to have enough education to know that the last five minutes of world history are not the only ones that matter, and if you can’t stretch that far, tell me what got the British out of India after hundreds of years of brutal repression and subsequent uprisings.
History is NOT on your side. If you REALLY want to make a difference, then stop. Learn your enemy. Wait. Then act.
Hell, that’s what your enemy did. They built Cop City in Atlanta just for this time. You don’t have shit.
And son, we ALREADY know we have fascists on our streets. The only ones who don’t know are the ones sticking their fingers in their ears going la la la la la la doing everything in their power to avoid knowing.
we ALREADY know we have fascists on our streets. The only ones who don’t know are the ones sticking their fingers in their ears going la la la la la la doing everything in their power to avoid knowing.
Maybe a good first step is to make sure they do know.
The more people you can have on the side of opposing fascism the more likely it will be to defeat it.
You avoided the primary question - what’s the line them? It honestly doesn’t even really matter, since the whole premise of your post is that there is a line and that you eventually have to strike and use force. Our only disagreement is where that line actually is.
Besides, acting like Portland was some grand victory is just silly. OK - the national guard is out of Portland for the moment. They just moved on to their next target. They flood the zone and move fast so the legal system can’t keep up. The damage was already done and they just moved to sow chaos in a new location with a different militarized force. What a win.
Peaceful protests are an important tool to the fight, but these people only fear consequences. Physical, emotional, reputational or financial harm. It’s a multi-faceted fight, but that’s what it is - a fight. If they think they can best you through physical force alone, that’s what they will do. You can’t let them think that. You need a stick to respond in kind with.
Maybe you should read up on the Hindustan Socialist Republican Association or the Indian National Army. They both played major roles in Indian independence. Ghandi is a great story, but guess who he had as a counter balance? The stick.
If they think they can best you through physical force alone, that’s what they will do. You can’t let them think that. You need a stick to respond in kind with.
Holding that stick is fine. We have a Constitutional right to that stick. They need to be made to think about that stick before they attack us.
BUT we gotta play smarter than that and pray to God we don’t gotta use that stick, because these guys will beat The People in a standup fight. Why?
Their whole lives are violence. They dream of violence, they are paid handsomly to spend their time training for violence, they spend their individual salaries on violence-multipliers and have government budgets to enable their violence, they consume violence.
They have forfeited their humanity in order to be really, really good at brutalizing and killing other human beings, and they have a massive apparatus behind them.
If we draw a line in the sand they will cross that line because they know they would win that game.
However, they seemingly struggle to understand how their own friggin’ government works though, and they’re slipping up, even with their cronies in place. We need to press that advantage as hard as we can and play a game they’re too stupid to handle.
So if we can embolden the political resistance, and also stoke civil resistance as discussed above (cutting off supply lines and flipping public sentiment and pressuring weenie politicians), any act of brutality is still a massive mark against them right now.
I’m sure only the most diehard cultists can see what happened to that poor woman and still think “bUt MuH jUsTiFiEd FeDs ThO.” The more we expose them, the more they’ll lose support, even from all their wet-napkin neolib suburbanites who “Don’t follow politics.”
By all means, we should still train and be ready to use that stick, if all else fails. But by God…we should not be eager.
And that’s just a lie. The legal system IS keeping up. The National Guard is NOT being redeployed. Hell, the NG isn’t even in Menneapolis, though Gov. Walz has put it on standby as is his prerogative as governor.
Ghandi is a great story, but guess who he had as a counter balance? The stick.
Then you should go back and reread that story, because “the stick” was hundreds of years worth of the British coming down on Indians with absolute brutality, the Indians rising up again with massive brutality of their own, and then the British coming back across with escalations like Amritsar.
What got the British their asses handed to them after hundreds of years of this bloody back and forth was a line of non-violent protesters who simply went to the beach to make salt. Thousands of them. Who at the end of their march walked straight into billy clubs without ever raising a hand or a stick.
You literally do not know the history you to seek to (mis)represent here. Hundreds of years of what you propose did nothing; it only secured the British power more firmly than ever. And it’s not just India; we have some semblance of civil rights here because of Martin Luther King, Jr. doing the same thing.
The line of violence is not for you to propose to others. It is for you to choose for yourself, and stop trying to get others to bleed in your stead.
I mostly don’t disagree with you but it seems the executive branch has moved on from deploying the national guard to instigate violence and instead is just outright committing acts of violence on its own. Will the legal system keep up with that? -I don’t know for certain but I’d put a fiver on these agents never sitting opposite of a prosecutor in a courtroom.
the executive branch has moved on from deploying the national guard to instigate violence and instead is just outright committing acts of violence on its own.
This is because of Reagan’s use of NG at Berkeley and the mass murders of students by NG at Kent State and U New Mexico in 1970s. NG has checks now. I realize Lemmy thinks Police State Fascism is new in 2025 but this has been America since the 1960s.
it seems the executive branch has moved on from deploying the national guard to instigate violence and instead is just outright committing acts of violence on its own.
You’re not wrong. That’s exactly what they are doing. But they are doing it out of desperation: if they get us to the midterms and states (all voting in the US is regulated by the states, not the feds) have elections, this administration becomes powerless and Trump is in the same danger he was in prior to regaining office, but now with a pissed off nation that wants him gone.
For myself, it’s too soon to tell whether this administration will succeed in overthrowing the legitimate government and substituting its own form of fascist authoritarianism. This is in progress; it is anything but complete. Plus, states have their own authority as well, and today, the Minnesota AG told the feds that the goon who shot Ms. Good can be prosecuted for murder by the state. So it may not be up to the feds after all. I guess we’ll see.
So you’re saying we only need to wait one year until the midterms and if that doesn’t work, then all gloves off? Or are you going to tell us to wait then too?
I’m not telling anyone anything but to stand back, learn their enemy, and choose their own moment in which to bleed. Anyone calling for others to fight is not going to be bearing your losses, you are. You choose your own moment to fight.
And while you’re weighing up your best approach, look at one of the many violent protests we’ve already had in this country and consider which ones are resounding successes, because they’re not. They are all remembered as fails, on both sides. There are very good reasons why agents provocateurs are planted in non-violent protests; they would not be there if violence was not going to help the state.
Meanwhile, the National Guard was ordered out of Portland in 2025 because of non-violence:
You have no right to get others to fight your battles. If you want to hit the streets and fight ICE, no one is stopping you. But it won’t change a fucking thing. That’s a great way to ensure you get labeled violent thugs and your protest labeled the problem of malcontents.
If you want change that makes a government truly piss itself in fear, go French and have a general strike.
Even if you were right about the legal system keeping up (you’re not), it is failing so hard is other ways, it doesn’t even matter. Do you remember Citizens United where the Supreme Court allowed endless and unchecked amounts of money to flood our political system accelerating us down this path of division? How about SC giving our president complete immunity to do whatever he wants in office? Or the Trump appointed judge that intentionally derailed his prosecutions so no one could hold him accountable? Or how about the SC justice that retired early so his son could get a cushy job in return for Trump being able to appoint another justice? That legal system? Yea, it’s functioning great. A real bulwark there.
Secondly, you really believe that was this one series of peaceful protests the ONLY and driving factor behind Indian independence? Not the fact that the British had a failing empire and needed funds to rebuild after WWII? How about the fact that they had their hands full in the middle east and China at the same time? Or that they no longer had the forces, resources or will to contunue to fight the armed resistance in the country? Chalking up a remarkably complex series of events and outcomes to a single factor shows how little you understand about the world.
No one is asking anyone to bleed for anyone. I just don’t have blinders on and can see what is coming. I also have a deep enough understanding of history to understand how freedom is obtained and maintained. Sorry that offends you, but it really seems like a personal problem. Have fun with that.
The difference here is that none of what you are writing about is currently relevant: successful non-violent protest is.
Instead of addressing that, and absolutely avoiding the actual court order I posted with all your larping might, you’re diving into the weeds of how we got here, like Citizen’s United has anything DIRECTLY to do with choosing as an individual to hold your ground, think it out, and choose your own arena in which to most effectively fight.
As to the rest, I think what I think because many more educated and reasoned individuals than yourself have already researched the strategy of non-violence in topping unwanted regimes. I don’t need a misguided larper to rewrite history for me; I’ve already studied it, and many better than yourself have offered studied, intelligent analyses of both positions.
There’s a reason non-violence works, and a reason why you keep posting in defense of violence, while accusing me of non-specifics even as you pointedly ignore your own.
If you wanna get out on the streets and fight ICE, no one is stopping you. But I note you’re not. You’re posting here to incite others to do it for you.
Comical edit. Can’t actually respond with substance, so you try to misstate the position you cannot rebut and undermine it will a silly ad hominem attack because I haven’t used a forum for as long as you. Classic.
Let’s be clear - I wish the world didn’t work the way it does, but you can’t argue with millenia of human history. Even your own examples of idealisn were so paper thin, they couldn’t stand 5 minutes of scrutiny. I would honestly love to live in a world where reason and intellect were sufficient to win the day. Unfortunately, whenever we start down that path, it always seems to get blown up by bad actors that would rather see the world burn than lose power. Burying your head in the sand about reality doesn’t help anyone.
Bad actors are in charge. They have no respect to our current system or the people in it, and they are actively trying to destroy it for their own personal gain. We can either let them, or we can do something about. If seeing and understanding the magnitude of our current situation makes me a “larper”, so be it. I’d rather be that than whatever you are, or are pretending to be.
Good luck to you out there. Sounds like you are going to need it.
I did respond with substance; you chose to reply to a different comment. You are the one without substance: all general urgings toward violence – “We can either let them, or we can do something about [it]” – but nothing specific. I referred to very specific points in history, and when and why they worked, while you blew right past that to be able to remain in your generalities.
But what I’d really like you to explain, which you cannot and never will, is how and why it is a winning measure to respond to provocation with violence when your violent response is exactly what they want, and will absolutely be used to cement their power further.
I just posted the court order that literally says the National Guard were posted to Portland, Oregon to quell existing violence. They got kicked out based on the fact there was no violence.
Your answer to this is to call others, not yourself, to unspecified violence.
So I’d say we’re not on the same team, regardless of what you write or how old your account (or you) are, because what you propose will only set cities on fire and cement this administration’s hold on power. As actual history shows.
I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re just writing because you already know this crew is drowning under the weight of their own unpopularity, and you are terrified they will get thrown out before they really get cemented in. Or like some others, you really do want to see American cities burn. Or like even others, you’re terrified because you left your regional and national security to the US for far too long and never took action to secure yourselves against the neighbor in your own backyard (Putin).
Whatever you’re writing to prove, you’ve failed. And yeah, your 22-hour old account is kind of a dead giveaway that this isn’t your battle to fight – or rather, to get others to fight for you.
What’s your fuckin’ point? You want people to start pouring into the streets with AR15’s, hand guns, and pipe bombs and do what, start attacking ICE facilities around the country? Besides the fact that it’s incredibly stupid and it would just be seen as wonton violence by a majority of the population, and that such a movement would immediately be crushed by people who are just fucking itching for a fight, you can’t have a revolution without the backing of a significant portion of the military. Things are bad, but they’re not that bad yet. Once economic disparity reaches a critical mass and people start getting Great Depression levels of pissed off, like food riots level pissed off, and we’re not far from that, if Trump starts using the military or ICE to put down citizens en masse, then you’ll start to see conditions that develop into the type of thing you’re talking about. Until then, and probably especially then, because the secret police will black bag you, it’s probably best to not make vague and ill considered overtures for violence in the streets.
Did you even read your comment before you posted it? “Let’s have another self inflicted great depression because a pedophile wants to hide his crimes, and after the government murders enough of us in the street to make us mad, then let’s do something about it.” That type of attitude is why we are in this situation. It’s honestly pathetic, but you do you.
The fact that some of you are so upset by reality is not my problem. Protest is one facet of resistance. It can’t be the only one to be effective. You can pretend we live in some lala land where fascists are going to wake up one day and realize how wrong they are because of a great post on lemmly, but I live in the real world, and that’s not how it works here.
Perhaps exercising a literal CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT (2nd Amendment - you should look it up) offends you, but did you ever consider that was it was there for a reason? There are plenty of ways to respond forcefully and non-lethally short of your ridiculous example. Sometimes the threat of force is sufficient. Sometimes it isn’t. Maybe we should explore those options as a country instead of burying our heads in the sand and pretending that it’s all going to be fine. Shutting down the conversation because it makes you uncomfortable isn’t helping anyone.
The specific violence is highly contextual. And it’s wise to be light on specifics, but for historical examples you can look up the history of German and Austrian resistance fighters in Germany during and prior to world war 2 if you like. Efforts both peaceful and violent had an impact and contributed to the allied victory.
A good example would be finding specific individuals who have broken the law and killed people, but who have avoided any legal repercussion, and ensuring that there is a repercussion.
It’s definitely not an action that should be taken wildly, or while on tilt. but we’re approaching the point of needing that kind of action.
An alliance of a dozen countries completely crushed the Nazi war machine.
Which isn’t relevant.
You’re strongly implying shooting someone (anyone?) in the US federal government will stop the rapidly increasing fascism. It won’t. It will be a casus belli to double down on fascism.
For all the larpers here demanding violent response, here’s the link to Judge Karen Immergut’s final decision of November 7, 2025 kicking the National Guard out of Portland, Oregon.
https://www.opb.org/pdf/FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW_1762564569662.pdf
You don’t have to read the whole thing. In fact, you don’t have to read more than the first (long) paragraph to understand that the courts are still largely defending the Constitution, and that it was the lack of violent response to Trump’s provocations that caused her to rule against keeping the National Guard in Portland. I’ve added line breaks, but this is the first paragraph:
And then, specifically BECAUSE of the non-violent response of Portland, in every successive paragraph Judge Immergut labeled the order to move the National Guard into Portland UNLAWFUL.
A violent response is NOT the answer at this point in time. I guarantee we will ALL know when it is. Save your shot.
In the meantime, my fellow countrymen, beware of larpers who don’t even live in the US, much less in Minneapolis, trying to whip up rage and get people to fight. It’s not their blood that will be shed, not their families destroyed, not the last shreds of their democracy thrown into the cesspit of an impotent orange excrescence’s lust for power and unending greed: it will be our own.
If you’re here to say you think people should fight, all you’re really telling me is that you’ve never had to fight, you don’t know how it works, you won’t be the one to pay the price in your own blood, AND you want Trump to consolidate his power even faster than he already is by giving him reason to occupy cities with the National Guard, declare martial law, and avoid having midterm elections. Think twice.
Canadian here: it is important to us that you resist your fascist regime. We need you to do that just as much you need to do that for yourselves. It is also extremely important to deeply understand that resistance is NOT a binary switch that flips between “nothing” and “armed resistance”. At this stage in the game, in the US, you guys need to be doing a whole lot more of non-armed and institutional resistance. You need extreme pettiness. Make the trumpofascists pay a price in annoyance every step of the fucking way.
For example, call your senators and congresspeople, even the more radical left ones, and ask them why they are not calling for votes for every fucking little thing that depends on unanimity.. Then threaten to primary those that don’t. RESIST OR GET OUT OF THE WAY.
Then, the question goes to the mayors the ones that bluster with “gtfo ICE”. Why are they not doing road reconstruction in front and round ICE facilities? Why are there no incessant pipe maintenance requests at the sewers and cables and water mains that feed those compounds? RATFUCK THEM.
Then the question goes to the merchants. Why are there no “we don’t sell to ICE” signs on shops around their compounds? Why is it commercially viable to NOT have a policy like that? Why are they contracting work to them? Why is any private entity in the ICE supply chain not being constantly threatened with boycotts and divestment? MAKE IT TOXIC TO WORK WITH THEM.
Do I need to keep going, or do people get the idea?
Beyond that, realize that you have to start small, then build up: https://youtu.be/vvaquOcNEKI Armed resistance is the worst case scenario endgame. Not the start.
As an outsider; there’s always plenty of trolls out there, but I think a lot of the recent calls for violence stem from tons of people outside being really scared right now. The head of the state of USA just kidnapped a leader of another nation in a military operation and is threatening to attack and conquer part of another sovereign state, which even has been allied with USA for a long time. So from Europe especially it looks like your country has turned on us and become a real threat, and you are lead by unhinged megalomaniac controlling the worlds largest army, that might actually do as he says; collapse NATO and start another great war.
Seeing video footage of someone being brutally murdered by the state has truly shocked people in my country as well - something like that is incredibly alarming, and combined with your leaders threats of war, to us it basically looks like fascists have taken over your country already. Considering the history of ww2 and the rise of nazis is still well known and remembered in Europe, it’s easy to jump into conclusions about where this seems to be leading into, since we are barely getting news about any resistance happening.
All this combined with scared people thus logically ends up with pleas to do anything to stop ww3 from happening, since it is your country threatening to start it
I agree with every word you wrote. Now imagine being a citizen of that country that is threatening WWIII in your name. and completely against your will while all around you its adherents act like they’re in a cult and babble sound bites and nonsense at you while you watch them work toward blowing the world up.
You have no idea how many of us are on your side, because even our media goes at the worst of these excesses with a “both sides the same” approach. I personally am terrified, but I’m old enough to know that wars always last longer than people think they will. Save your shot and use it for maximum effect.
Protests do work; violence does not. We’ve had a lot of violent protests in the US in the last few years, but none of them are viewed as successes. There’s a reason for that. Getting people riled up to do stupid things helps no one but the oppressor. Cop City was built for this, and they started that what, ten years ago? That’s how long they’ve been preparing. And Alligator Alcatraz has thousands of beds . . . for deportees? No. Deportees get deported, you don’t hold them. They waited until the infrastructure was ready, and now they are so prepared for anyone who wants to go violent, because they want that, and will use that to declare martial law. And we, the resistance, is only just starting!
What we need and want is for the fence-sitters among us to join the protest, and that does not happen with violence. Violence repels the non-involved and gives them a reason to turn away.
Calls to violence that lead to violence are exactly what this regime wants. Why do you advocate giving them anything at all? There are many ways to manage emotions that do not involve calling other people to fight in the streets. If we see violence in the streets, that means the regime is fully in place and we are now under martial law: in that instance everyone should fight as much as they want.
But until then, be wise. This is only the beginning. If anyone wants to make a REAL difference, then instead of calling for others to shed their blood for you, you decide what you can do where you are, using what you have, to make a start. If you’re not in the US it really helps when YOU protest! And of course here we can each do what we can. We haven’t even tried a general strike, and that would be our next best step.
Our country has already fallen to fascists. That happened. Otherwise all this wouldn’t be happening. People need to accept that and start organizing before he starts WW3, which he very well.may have already.
This bears repeating. I’ve seen it in every political thread here on lemmy.world for the last year. Every, single, time, some troll crashes into the thread and promotes escalation and violence. And every time someone takes the bait and gets into an argument, swamping half the visible comment area, effectively pushing out any sane discourse about a smarter way to deal with this. It’s hard to see it happen with such regularity and not imagine this to be calculated and deliberate.
To this I say: let’s treat our political forum spaces like a protest. Stay civil. Call out provocateurs but don’t engage directly. Downvote and report to admins. Freeze these trolls out of the conversation, and let’s keep putting our heads together.
Thank you for saying this. I do not believe any of them are posting in good faith, and when challenged rely on logical fallacies and emotionally charged non-factual or barely factual statements.
They’re here solely to inflame and incite. No other conclusion left to draw.
It might depend on how we define “good faith”, but I think some of them are probably posting in good faith — though good intentions don’t negate the harm they do, of course. I get the sense that some of the people trying to incite violent action are feeling overwhelmed and powerless due to being so far away from what is happening. I say this as someone who isn’t an American, and thus can only spectate with horror as American politics continues going to hell, with ripple effects on the rest of the world.
It’s easy to rile people up when it’s not your neck on the line though. However uncomfortable it is to be spectating what’s happening in the US, you guys have it much worse. It would be nice to imagine that this is the kind of thing that could be solved through one, big push of violent resistance, but with how deep MAGA cronies have gotten their talons into US politics, resistance will necessarily require thinking of the long game. Violent resistance, when deployed unwisely, can end up serving the ends of the oppressor.
I tend to agree. I’m trying my level best to approach the entire situation with as much humanism and empathy as I can muster. That said, I’ve become a bit more bold in asking for honest follow-up from these folks: what’s the plan, what have you done to prepare, what practical things can the rest of us do, and how will you survive the violent uprising you endorse? I’ve watched others try this as well. So far, it’s just been radio silence every time. While not direct evidence, my experience so far is that these troll-like comments strongly resemble bad-faith arguments, as their authors disengage when I attempt to solicit details and/or de-escalate the conversation.
I agree with this, and it shames me that my own humanity is dulled enough by constant challenges to consider it secondary. But a core part of what us anti-fascists actually tend to agree about is that words matter. I’d take it a step further and say that en masse we are individually creating change whether for better or worse, whether we acknowledge we have that power or not.
So when we incite others, we are making the problem bigger even in spite of ourselves, even as much as we claim to want the opposite (a return to sane leadership and at least superficially courteous discourse).
And that’s beyond the obvious logistics: these people arguing for violent resistance never say where or when or how they’d like others to fight, but those of us who have actually been to protests that got heated know it’s not that simple. Agents provocateurs are everywhere, because they want it to get violent, the administration wants to be able to run headlines that paint resistors as disgruntled agitators and hoodlums and troublemakers, not your neighbor or your coworker or your boss. Anything to dehumanize and label “the other”, and violent protests deliver us all up to that end. As soon as we are labeled, we cease to matter.
Compounding this problem, Americans have been firehosed with propaganda and mass manipulation from every direction for over a decade now, including mainstream media. The atmosphere here now is much what I have read of pre-WWII Germany: tight, cautious, foreboding, grim. And angry. Extremely angry. So when I see people who want to light a match to it, it’s almost impossible for me to see that as an act of good faith.
In the meantime, for all the media focus on this unconscionable murder of a citizen just trying to get home (apparently she was shot on the same street she lived) the existing cracks in the administration’s attempts to consolidate power are widening. I’d point you to Heather Cox Richardson, who mentioned in her chat today what the media is downplaying: that the Dems finally pushed through a vote on the healthcare subsidies today, and they got it through on a discharge petition because over a dozen Republicans voted for it in spite of Trump’s threats and Mike Johnson’s best efforts to keep it from a vote.
The House is also set to overturn two Trump vetoes (one of which is a Trump revenge veto against Lauren Boebert of Colorado for standing firm on the Epstein files).EDITED to add that they failed to overturn the vetoes, but did get a War Powers Act resolution up for a vote through the Senate, meaning that they will vote on whether further action in Venezuela has to be approved by Congress. This was aided by five Republicans who voted with the Dems.All of that is a big deal. This complicit Congress, without whom Trump would have nothing, are now working across the aisle on multiple issues in spite of him. Even Minnesota is standing firm and telling the feds that the ICE thug who shot Ms. Good can in fact be charged with murder by the state, and there’s really nothing the feds can do about it. The Supreme Court can only rule on what comes before it; meanwhile, lower courts are overturning his efforts right and left.
In short, he is losing power faster than he can consolidate it, and when it comes right down to it, his goons shot a woman whose only crime was trying to get home from dropping her son off at school. When American beliefs have shifted away from a prevailing wind, it has often been because of a victim like Ms. Good that we can all relate to. Again, the firehose of lies is flooding the media with their alternative narrative, but those videos are circulating faster than they can be shut down – and even the videos only exist because sane individuals were out there blowing whistles to let their neighbors know that ICE was there to begin with. That’s where real change happens, and where true power lies: with the individual.
So yeah. I can’t tell you how bad it is here right now: it is beyond anything I have ever experienced. But resistance is popping up everywhere, and outside of the roughly 20%-25% that are always going to support authoritarian rule in any society, there is no real support for him. That’s another reason why I’d tell people here to incite violence to knock it off: they could actually be part of the growing resistance if they let go of the rage and think about what’s next. Wisdom and rage rarely accomplish the same thing, and we’ve only just started to fight back. Anyone who wants to fight in the street will likely have their opportunity to do so, unfortunately. But right now it will only fuel the oppressor.
Thank you for your courteous reply; I was kind of shocked to see it, honestly. I appreciate it, more than you know.
Seriously, thank you for that writeup. I clung to every word, and it inspired hope.
While the prevailing hivemind narrative is that people are “doing nothing” while Nero plays his fiddle, that’s clearly not actually the case, and inspires me to be way more politically active.
Thank you again for the discourse and taking the time to educate people. You’re doing good work. God bless and stay safe out there. <3
Are you using AI? Who writes like that?
I’m what AI trained on, fool.
I do, all the time. I used to on Reddit quite a lot. So, if anything, AI writes like me.
What a mic-drop shutdown of a response. DAMN. Lol!
You’re totally right with that approach. Asking rational questions that bypass kneejerk violence-monkey emotions tends to not get a valid response.
I’m also wary of all these “Well go start a fight or you don’t actually care” posts. They’re typical keyboard-warrior nonsense and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were bots at this point, as there would be a lot of value in flooding every communication platform imaginable with this rhetoric until it does something to legitimize tyranny. This would be trivial for any nation-state or even competent fringe group to pull off.
Thanks? It’s a rather childish clap-back, so I’ll laugh with you either way if it’s sarcasm or not. ;) That said, I really don’t like the idea that someone that actually knows how to write being accused of being a bot; I won’t stand for AI poisoning legitimate creativity along with the rest.
I really try to avoid fringe, conspiracy, magical, or otherwise just-universe-fallacy thinking if I can help it. But the copium on this is very, very real though, which makes rational thought in this area very hard. So I could be dead wrong here. Take this all with all the salt it takes to clear a Michigan freeway in January.
So, I keep combing back to that realization too. I think that chaos is easy to create if you press hard on existing social rifts, and has an outrageously good cost:benefit ratio if you can just inject yourself into everyday discourse from 10,000 miles away.
Professionals. Academics. Anyone who’s been to college can write like that. Go get an education.
I just tell the trolls to address the rising right wing threat in their own country, because wherever they’re from, it’s happening there, too.
Removed by mod
EDITED TO ADD: This is a 22-hour old account, whose only content is the above comment containing a misguided pastiche of current and historical points designed to produce an emotional response. This is exactly the kind of larper Americans need to be aware of.
Sometimes? No, always. The cost is ALWAYS blood. People have ALREADY died. It’s you who are naive.
I just posted the court order: BECAUSE Portland did not resist violently, the National Guard is no longer there.
Getting violent because someone is trying to get you to become violent is the most stupid thing you can do.
It’s not hard to run on rage. What’s infinitely more difficult is to suppress the rage until you know your enraged actions will have the maximum benefit. Right now, non-violence is having the maximum benefit.
It helps to have enough education to know that the last five minutes of world history are not the only ones that matter, and if you can’t stretch that far, tell me what got the British out of India after hundreds of years of brutal repression and subsequent uprisings.
History is NOT on your side. If you REALLY want to make a difference, then stop. Learn your enemy. Wait. Then act.
Hell, that’s what your enemy did. They built Cop City in Atlanta just for this time. You don’t have shit.
And son, we ALREADY know we have fascists on our streets. The only ones who don’t know are the ones sticking their fingers in their ears going la la la la la la doing everything in their power to avoid knowing.
Maybe a good first step is to make sure they do know.
The more people you can have on the side of opposing fascism the more likely it will be to defeat it.
You avoided the primary question - what’s the line them? It honestly doesn’t even really matter, since the whole premise of your post is that there is a line and that you eventually have to strike and use force. Our only disagreement is where that line actually is.
Besides, acting like Portland was some grand victory is just silly. OK - the national guard is out of Portland for the moment. They just moved on to their next target. They flood the zone and move fast so the legal system can’t keep up. The damage was already done and they just moved to sow chaos in a new location with a different militarized force. What a win.
Peaceful protests are an important tool to the fight, but these people only fear consequences. Physical, emotional, reputational or financial harm. It’s a multi-faceted fight, but that’s what it is - a fight. If they think they can best you through physical force alone, that’s what they will do. You can’t let them think that. You need a stick to respond in kind with.
Maybe you should read up on the Hindustan Socialist Republican Association or the Indian National Army. They both played major roles in Indian independence. Ghandi is a great story, but guess who he had as a counter balance? The stick.
Holding that stick is fine. We have a Constitutional right to that stick. They need to be made to think about that stick before they attack us.
BUT we gotta play smarter than that and pray to God we don’t gotta use that stick, because these guys will beat The People in a standup fight. Why?
Their whole lives are violence. They dream of violence, they are paid handsomly to spend their time training for violence, they spend their individual salaries on violence-multipliers and have government budgets to enable their violence, they consume violence.
They have forfeited their humanity in order to be really, really good at brutalizing and killing other human beings, and they have a massive apparatus behind them.
If we draw a line in the sand they will cross that line because they know they would win that game.
However, they seemingly struggle to understand how their own friggin’ government works though, and they’re slipping up, even with their cronies in place. We need to press that advantage as hard as we can and play a game they’re too stupid to handle.
So if we can embolden the political resistance, and also stoke civil resistance as discussed above (cutting off supply lines and flipping public sentiment and pressuring weenie politicians), any act of brutality is still a massive mark against them right now.
I’m sure only the most diehard cultists can see what happened to that poor woman and still think “bUt MuH jUsTiFiEd FeDs ThO.” The more we expose them, the more they’ll lose support, even from all their wet-napkin neolib suburbanites who “Don’t follow politics.”
By all means, we should still train and be ready to use that stick, if all else fails. But by God…we should not be eager.
And that’s just a lie. The legal system IS keeping up. The National Guard is NOT being redeployed. Hell, the NG isn’t even in Menneapolis, though Gov. Walz has put it on standby as is his prerogative as governor.
Then you should go back and reread that story, because “the stick” was hundreds of years worth of the British coming down on Indians with absolute brutality, the Indians rising up again with massive brutality of their own, and then the British coming back across with escalations like Amritsar.
What got the British their asses handed to them after hundreds of years of this bloody back and forth was a line of non-violent protesters who simply went to the beach to make salt. Thousands of them. Who at the end of their march walked straight into billy clubs without ever raising a hand or a stick.
You literally do not know the history you to seek to (mis)represent here. Hundreds of years of what you propose did nothing; it only secured the British power more firmly than ever. And it’s not just India; we have some semblance of civil rights here because of Martin Luther King, Jr. doing the same thing.
The line of violence is not for you to propose to others. It is for you to choose for yourself, and stop trying to get others to bleed in your stead.
I mostly don’t disagree with you but it seems the executive branch has moved on from deploying the national guard to instigate violence and instead is just outright committing acts of violence on its own. Will the legal system keep up with that? -I don’t know for certain but I’d put a fiver on these agents never sitting opposite of a prosecutor in a courtroom.
This is because of Reagan’s use of NG at Berkeley and the mass murders of students by NG at Kent State and U New Mexico in 1970s. NG has checks now. I realize Lemmy thinks Police State Fascism is new in 2025 but this has been America since the 1960s.
You’re not wrong. That’s exactly what they are doing. But they are doing it out of desperation: if they get us to the midterms and states (all voting in the US is regulated by the states, not the feds) have elections, this administration becomes powerless and Trump is in the same danger he was in prior to regaining office, but now with a pissed off nation that wants him gone.
For myself, it’s too soon to tell whether this administration will succeed in overthrowing the legitimate government and substituting its own form of fascist authoritarianism. This is in progress; it is anything but complete. Plus, states have their own authority as well, and today, the Minnesota AG told the feds that the goon who shot Ms. Good can be prosecuted for murder by the state. So it may not be up to the feds after all. I guess we’ll see.
So you’re saying we only need to wait one year until the midterms and if that doesn’t work, then all gloves off? Or are you going to tell us to wait then too?
I’m not telling anyone anything but to stand back, learn their enemy, and choose their own moment in which to bleed. Anyone calling for others to fight is not going to be bearing your losses, you are. You choose your own moment to fight.
And while you’re weighing up your best approach, look at one of the many violent protests we’ve already had in this country and consider which ones are resounding successes, because they’re not. They are all remembered as fails, on both sides. There are very good reasons why agents provocateurs are planted in non-violent protests; they would not be there if violence was not going to help the state.
Meanwhile, the National Guard was ordered out of Portland in 2025 because of non-violence:
https://www.opb.org/pdf/FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW_1762564569662.pdf
You have no right to get others to fight your battles. If you want to hit the streets and fight ICE, no one is stopping you. But it won’t change a fucking thing. That’s a great way to ensure you get labeled violent thugs and your protest labeled the problem of malcontents.
If you want change that makes a government truly piss itself in fear, go French and have a general strike.
What a fantasy land you are living in.
Even if you were right about the legal system keeping up (you’re not), it is failing so hard is other ways, it doesn’t even matter. Do you remember Citizens United where the Supreme Court allowed endless and unchecked amounts of money to flood our political system accelerating us down this path of division? How about SC giving our president complete immunity to do whatever he wants in office? Or the Trump appointed judge that intentionally derailed his prosecutions so no one could hold him accountable? Or how about the SC justice that retired early so his son could get a cushy job in return for Trump being able to appoint another justice? That legal system? Yea, it’s functioning great. A real bulwark there.
Secondly, you really believe that was this one series of peaceful protests the ONLY and driving factor behind Indian independence? Not the fact that the British had a failing empire and needed funds to rebuild after WWII? How about the fact that they had their hands full in the middle east and China at the same time? Or that they no longer had the forces, resources or will to contunue to fight the armed resistance in the country? Chalking up a remarkably complex series of events and outcomes to a single factor shows how little you understand about the world.
No one is asking anyone to bleed for anyone. I just don’t have blinders on and can see what is coming. I also have a deep enough understanding of history to understand how freedom is obtained and maintained. Sorry that offends you, but it really seems like a personal problem. Have fun with that.
The difference here is that none of what you are writing about is currently relevant: successful non-violent protest is.
Instead of addressing that, and absolutely avoiding the actual court order I posted with all your larping might, you’re diving into the weeds of how we got here, like Citizen’s United has anything DIRECTLY to do with choosing as an individual to hold your ground, think it out, and choose your own arena in which to most effectively fight.
As to the rest, I think what I think because many more educated and reasoned individuals than yourself have already researched the strategy of non-violence in topping unwanted regimes. I don’t need a misguided larper to rewrite history for me; I’ve already studied it, and many better than yourself have offered studied, intelligent analyses of both positions.
There’s a reason non-violence works, and a reason why you keep posting in defense of violence, while accusing me of non-specifics even as you pointedly ignore your own.
If you wanna get out on the streets and fight ICE, no one is stopping you. But I note you’re not. You’re posting here to incite others to do it for you.
Comical edit. Can’t actually respond with substance, so you try to misstate the position you cannot rebut and undermine it will a silly ad hominem attack because I haven’t used a forum for as long as you. Classic.
Let’s be clear - I wish the world didn’t work the way it does, but you can’t argue with millenia of human history. Even your own examples of idealisn were so paper thin, they couldn’t stand 5 minutes of scrutiny. I would honestly love to live in a world where reason and intellect were sufficient to win the day. Unfortunately, whenever we start down that path, it always seems to get blown up by bad actors that would rather see the world burn than lose power. Burying your head in the sand about reality doesn’t help anyone.
Bad actors are in charge. They have no respect to our current system or the people in it, and they are actively trying to destroy it for their own personal gain. We can either let them, or we can do something about. If seeing and understanding the magnitude of our current situation makes me a “larper”, so be it. I’d rather be that than whatever you are, or are pretending to be.
Good luck to you out there. Sounds like you are going to need it.
I did respond with substance; you chose to reply to a different comment. You are the one without substance: all general urgings toward violence – “We can either let them, or we can do something about [it]” – but nothing specific. I referred to very specific points in history, and when and why they worked, while you blew right past that to be able to remain in your generalities.
But what I’d really like you to explain, which you cannot and never will, is how and why it is a winning measure to respond to provocation with violence when your violent response is exactly what they want, and will absolutely be used to cement their power further.
I just posted the court order that literally says the National Guard were posted to Portland, Oregon to quell existing violence. They got kicked out based on the fact there was no violence.
Your answer to this is to call others, not yourself, to unspecified violence.
So I’d say we’re not on the same team, regardless of what you write or how old your account (or you) are, because what you propose will only set cities on fire and cement this administration’s hold on power. As actual history shows.
I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re just writing because you already know this crew is drowning under the weight of their own unpopularity, and you are terrified they will get thrown out before they really get cemented in. Or like some others, you really do want to see American cities burn. Or like even others, you’re terrified because you left your regional and national security to the US for far too long and never took action to secure yourselves against the neighbor in your own backyard (Putin).
Whatever you’re writing to prove, you’ve failed. And yeah, your 22-hour old account is kind of a dead giveaway that this isn’t your battle to fight – or rather, to get others to fight for you.
How many base commanders with troops who have undying loyalty to them and the constitution do you got in your pocket?
Zero. Your point?
What’s your fuckin’ point? You want people to start pouring into the streets with AR15’s, hand guns, and pipe bombs and do what, start attacking ICE facilities around the country? Besides the fact that it’s incredibly stupid and it would just be seen as wonton violence by a majority of the population, and that such a movement would immediately be crushed by people who are just fucking itching for a fight, you can’t have a revolution without the backing of a significant portion of the military. Things are bad, but they’re not that bad yet. Once economic disparity reaches a critical mass and people start getting Great Depression levels of pissed off, like food riots level pissed off, and we’re not far from that, if Trump starts using the military or ICE to put down citizens en masse, then you’ll start to see conditions that develop into the type of thing you’re talking about. Until then, and probably especially then, because the secret police will black bag you, it’s probably best to not make vague and ill considered overtures for violence in the streets.
Did you even read your comment before you posted it? “Let’s have another self inflicted great depression because a pedophile wants to hide his crimes, and after the government murders enough of us in the street to make us mad, then let’s do something about it.” That type of attitude is why we are in this situation. It’s honestly pathetic, but you do you.
The fact that some of you are so upset by reality is not my problem. Protest is one facet of resistance. It can’t be the only one to be effective. You can pretend we live in some lala land where fascists are going to wake up one day and realize how wrong they are because of a great post on lemmly, but I live in the real world, and that’s not how it works here.
Perhaps exercising a literal CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT (2nd Amendment - you should look it up) offends you, but did you ever consider that was it was there for a reason? There are plenty of ways to respond forcefully and non-lethally short of your ridiculous example. Sometimes the threat of force is sufficient. Sometimes it isn’t. Maybe we should explore those options as a country instead of burying our heads in the sand and pretending that it’s all going to be fine. Shutting down the conversation because it makes you uncomfortable isn’t helping anyone.
If we can’t organize a general strike, we can’t organize an armed resistance.
we are long pass a strike, simply because everyone is too in disarray to even organize that.
Well said.
this is the argument that caused people to permit the Nazis.
So what specific violence do you recommend? Against whom? Where? When? Based on which historical precedent (pick just one)?
Because you’re both very light on specifics. “[T]his is the argument that caused people to permit the Nazis” is a statement made of smoke.
The specific violence is highly contextual. And it’s wise to be light on specifics, but for historical examples you can look up the history of German and Austrian resistance fighters in Germany during and prior to world war 2 if you like. Efforts both peaceful and violent had an impact and contributed to the allied victory.
A good example would be finding specific individuals who have broken the law and killed people, but who have avoided any legal repercussion, and ensuring that there is a repercussion.
It’s definitely not an action that should be taken wildly, or while on tilt. but we’re approaching the point of needing that kind of action.
Ah yes, because if people shot Nazis the Nazis would have taken their ball and gone home.
they did. It was called World War 2.
Really? One person shot one Nazi and the Nazis stopped the holocaust?
don’t pretend your mind doesn’t work well enough to comprehend what I’m saying.
An alliance of a dozen countries completely crushed the Nazi war machine.
Which isn’t relevant.
You’re strongly implying shooting someone (anyone?) in the US federal government will stop the rapidly increasing fascism. It won’t. It will be a casus belli to double down on fascism.
So go pound sand.