- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
" CATL has thrown its hat into the ring with the Naxtra sodium-ion battery, with 175 Wh/kg and 10,000 lifetime cycles along with operation from -40°C to 70°C. CATL is planning a start-stop battery for trucks using the technology. It has the potential to replace lead-acid batteries. CATL has announced battery pricing at the cell level in volume at $19/kWh. "
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“So, I don’t get why you people keep complaining. This is a green technology! Why are you so mad we’ve been evaporating the oceans at a speed to keep up with the demand for sodium? As if this is what has been causing all these new hurricanes and flood!”
- A trillionaire in 20 years or something.
The current timeline made me into a grumpy pessimist. I need to get out of that mindset.
Honey, where did you put my sodium ion battery?
On the kitchen counter so it can watch me cook dinner.
For anyone wondering what “10,000 lifetime cycles” means, it’s full charge / discharge to the point that the batteries are at 80% of original capacity so 10,000 is to me an absolutely incredible number.
A typical phone battery is rated for about 500 (you can massively improve this by not charging it beyond 80%).
A typical phone battery is rated for about 500 (you can massively improve this by not charging it beyond 80%).
This 80% thing is incredibly simplified and not even always accurate. Personally I charge to about 95% and my phone batteries remain at 98-100% condition after 2 years of everyday use.
Limiting yourself to 80% doesn’t really make sense. You’re losing 20% capacity instantly, instead of losing it slowly over a few years. To be fair, a lot of people treat their devices so poorly that they may hit the 80% in less than 12 months, so I guess there’s that.
I keep my car charged to 80% to help with battery degradation, and here’s why:
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Most days, I don’t use more than 30% of my battery capacity (roughly 75 miles/120km). Even that’s high. I don’t care if that means I go from 100%->70% or 80%-50% when I’ll charge back up again overnight
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It’s not a permanent setting! If I do go on a longer trip, I’ll bring it back up to 100% and not sweat it!
From what I’ve heard, charging beyond 80% increases the degradation rate, meaning time spent at that level is an important part of the equation. If I keep my phone plugged in overnight and at my desk, I have a lot of time at full charge that I’m not really using, but if I know I’m flying that day or running errands all day I can pop it up to 100% and it will be a non-degraded 100%
I’ve had my S20 far longer than my car and never did limit its charge. It’s fine for me, but the battery is sure showing its age.
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Yeah, a friend of mine made a similar argument and I hear it. Personally I’m always right beside a fast charger so it’s not an issue for me.
My phone has an option to auto-stop charging at 80% so I use that. I will occasionally charge it to 100% but like maybe once a month. TBH if it had an option to stop at 90% I’d probably use that as a middle ground (my steam deck does and I use 90% with it). I got 5 years out of my last phone and I’m 3 years into the current one and hoping to get many more out of it.
edit:
Personally I charge to about 95% and my phone batteries remain at 98-100% condition after 2 years of everyday use.
That’s a good reference point, cheers. Do you not find it a pain to monitor that though?
I think that fast charging is almost as damaging as full cycles.
OnePlus claim it’s not and a quick search does back that up. For the one specific to my phone they move a chunk of the work off the device (reducing heat on the phone) and onto the charger. It’ll still charge normally with any USB charger but it gets much hotter and is much slower compared to the OnePlus “warp” charge.
This also means that, when you buy a car with say a 500 km range, that the battery will last for 10,000 x 500 = 5 million kms. That is an absolutely insane number compared to cars that are on the road right now. And one you will obviously only reach if the rest of the car can keep up. EVs are already doing well compared to ICE cars in this regard, but this is almost an order of magnitude larger than the current status quo.
Also, considering that modern cars are considered totaled by basically any accident, it’s not going to be the limiting factor on the car’s lifetime. It’s mostly a talking point by ICE advocates who stealthily imply million km cars are typical.
Million km cars may not be typical, but it’s not an incredibly difficult number to reach with an ICE. But my issue here has always been the whole getting a bomb dropped on you issue of BEVs. The batteries have gotten better over time, but they can still fail fairly early sometimes and then it costs more to replace than the residual value of the vehicle. Whereas a poor person with skills can rebuild parts of an internal combustion engine for a reasonable amount of money because it’s possible to offset the labor into a time cost instead of money. Plus you can get a junkyard engine for cheap and go another 100k km or maybe way more if you’re lucky.
It’s a second, third or tenth owner problem which is why a lot of people overlook it.
Now the extra charge cycles of the sodium battery compared to lithium are already a significant step in making this a non-issue, but the true progress is in the fact that they’re cheaper, so out of warranty battery replacements might start making financial sense compared to parting out a car after only 10 years due to replacement costs.
This could be a true game changer for second hand EVs. Which means the people who buy brand new cars should also be more motivated to buy EVs because depreciation might become more reasonable. Right now the prices drop off a cliff as the battery warranty starts nearing its end.
I don’t know if the same applies to sodium batteries, early indicators are that they are less sensitive to depth of discharge as a degradation driver.
Still, the expected lifetime is going to be at least between 4-8 times NCM (traditional li-ion), which is massive.
Now, if we can just get the robber barons and their wholely-owned politicians out of the way of progress…
Yep
Good luck to you
You’re going to need a guillotine
I’m in!
We taking your car or mine?
That depends on how far we are going and charging stations on the way
This is what I’ve been waiting for as residential battery solution. Really nice to see it starting to take off.
Would this be a good replacement for 12v lead acid car batteries as well?
The price 🤯👀
Especially for residential/static storage, where energy to weight ratio isn’t as important.
Yep
if i can afford one, i’ll buy a car with it. but if i can’t, i’ll keep using my 04 nissan.
If I recall well, it isn’t a good fit for cars as it energy density per weight isn’t as good. But for residential batteries, that’s huge (if true).
This isn’t true any more, and it’s mentioned in the article. Sodium is at least equivalent to - and on pace to surpass - the energy density of Lithium. It’s already being used in passenger cars in the Far East.
And me my '02 Mitsubishi wagon.
It’s unlikely you will see a car powered by those in near future if ever as they have relatively low density. But you’ll definitely see those as home battery and such where size/density doesn’t matter that much. And I bet it’s less inflammable as well.
Edit: ha, I stand corrected, there are cars powered by these but don’t expect huge range.
honestly, I’m fine with a lower range. when i go into the office , it’s 15 km away from my house. i can charge up at home, drive to work, come back and charge it up for the next day, so as a daily driver it might be fine. The problem comes when I want to go on a road trip, which is my preferred method of going medium to long distance. I avoid flying like the plague, and trains are really expensive for some reason.
Per the edit, range will probably be fine. Na batts are already reaching the energy density of Li batts in EVs right now. It just takes a while for a new battery on an assembly line to get into actual car models. We’re not really waiting on any breakthroughs anymore.
In China NMC isn’t really used any more as a battery chemistry, almost all cars have LFP batteries. Sodium-ion has a slightly higher energy density than LFP. So basically almost all cars except the really expensive ones with a ridiculous range should switch over to sodium-ion pretty soon.
It’s still roughly half of the NMC. I wonder what’s the charging speed.
