It’s literally the one message every old European used to preach to us younger generations back in the day. I remember how important it was to them to make us understand that the minute we start dehumanizing people we don’t like, we are repeating the cycle.
It is why movies like Der Untergang exists. We have to understand that the most despicable people who ever lived were still human beings and much closer to ourselves than we like to think.
I have carried with me, my whole life the knowledge that I am fallible and I am capable of evil no matter how good of a person I think I am. To a lesser extent, every time I have thought I was too clever to fall for x, y and z, that’s when I have fallen right into it. “I would never end up in an abusive relationship. I have too much self respect for that” 🤡 “I’m far too strong to become the doormat in this and that friendship” 🤡 “I’ll never fall for fake information online. I’m too observant” 🤡
I could never trust myself to believe I would be too smart, kind or principled to not fall into a destructive and abusive pattern of behavior if the circumstances are twisted just right. I think more people would benefit if they reminded themselves of their imperfections and got off their high horses. On Lemmy alone I have encountered far too many holier than thou types who are super duper anti fascist but ironically act exactly like fascists, but to them it doesn’t count because they are “on the right side of history”.
Am I sad that some nazi KKK guy died? No. But he was human. Most likely a very terrible human, but still human.
The problem is that fascists know that normal people are empathetic in this way, and they use it against us. It makes it nearly impossible to stop them (without violence).
At some point you’re just bowing down to murderous psychopaths who literally want you dead.
So we should just give up and become them, is what you’re saying. That works well for two minutes and then you replace the problem with a new one. Russia is a good example of that, lol.
You were essentially arguing that we should not show empathy to people like the guy who died because they wouldn’t show empathy toward us. That is the path to fascism.
Violence does not defeat fascism. Empathy does. Violence is effective at toppling dictators, but if that is all you do, then a new dictator will just take his place. Empathy is what stops the chain of Violence everytime. That is when strong men and women say no to Violence and yes to a better system that treats everybody with human dignity and rights. Even those whom we don’t emotionally feel deserve it. A criminal who has committed a terrible crime should be locked up and not be around the public, but while he or she is in prison, he or she must still be treated as a human because they are one. If we start making exceptions we lose our humanity and take away theirs. Then we have death penalties which sometimes results in wrong convictions and wrongful executions. Emotionally, I can feel that the death penalty is justice, but that is just emotions. In reality, it is one step toward a aystem that stops seeing people as people and that shit trickles down.
Also, having empathy for someone doesn’t mean you have sympathy for them. Acknowledging that someone is a human doesn’t mean you bow down to their world view.
I do agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don’t understand the moral consequence. One do not have to think they’re too smart or too pure to take some kind of solace from the fact that there’s one less fascist walking the earth.
To me, that has nothing to do with being “better” as a human. It’s just that their project means my/our death. The more they grow, the more we die and vice versa. I do not dehumanize them nor do I think they’re stupid or deserve anything.
It’s as simple as : the more they grow, the more anything I care for will wither away.
You’re right, but it makes people uncomfortable so they don’t want to agree with you.
This isn’t like the economy. It IS a zero sum game. If they succeed, we lose. If they thrive in life, we lose. If they continue to live at all, we lose.
They can CHOOSE to come back to humanity, unlike their victims, but I won’t give them any consideration as having value until they do.
All that was said was that they are still human. Even if we dislike them. That is all. I find it interesting how defensive people are being about acknowledging that a terrible person is still a person.
If we stop acknowledging a bad person as a being a person, we have become what we hate. Its got nothing to do with caring or not caring about a kkk member dying. All we have reacted to was the claim that the guy wasn’t a human. That is the dangerous part.
ICYMI, I didn’t want to sound defensive. I mean it’s an interesting conservation, and I found it intriguing that I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote yet arrive at a slightly different conclusion.
People don’t always look to pick fights, sometimes, it’s just about discussion.
It’s literally the one message every old European used to preach to us younger generations back in the day. I remember how important it was to them to make us understand that the minute we start dehumanizing people we don’t like, we are repeating the cycle.
It is why movies like Der Untergang exists. We have to understand that the most despicable people who ever lived were still human beings and much closer to ourselves than we like to think.
I have carried with me, my whole life the knowledge that I am fallible and I am capable of evil no matter how good of a person I think I am. To a lesser extent, every time I have thought I was too clever to fall for x, y and z, that’s when I have fallen right into it. “I would never end up in an abusive relationship. I have too much self respect for that” 🤡 “I’m far too strong to become the doormat in this and that friendship” 🤡 “I’ll never fall for fake information online. I’m too observant” 🤡
I could never trust myself to believe I would be too smart, kind or principled to not fall into a destructive and abusive pattern of behavior if the circumstances are twisted just right. I think more people would benefit if they reminded themselves of their imperfections and got off their high horses. On Lemmy alone I have encountered far too many holier than thou types who are super duper anti fascist but ironically act exactly like fascists, but to them it doesn’t count because they are “on the right side of history”.
Am I sad that some nazi KKK guy died? No. But he was human. Most likely a very terrible human, but still human.
The problem is that fascists know that normal people are empathetic in this way, and they use it against us. It makes it nearly impossible to stop them (without violence).
At some point you’re just bowing down to murderous psychopaths who literally want you dead.
Acknowledging and understanding they are human DOES NOT mean cowing down or bowing down to them. It means understanding that they’re human.
Not explicitly. But, in my experience, that is usually the implication when people say that.
These are Nazis. If you aren’t fighting them, then you’re allowing them to spread their hate.
If someone this to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!
So we should just give up and become them, is what you’re saying. That works well for two minutes and then you replace the problem with a new one. Russia is a good example of that, lol.
If that was your takeaway, either you need to re-read my comment, or I do because that’s not at all what I meant to say.
You were essentially arguing that we should not show empathy to people like the guy who died because they wouldn’t show empathy toward us. That is the path to fascism.
Violence does not defeat fascism. Empathy does. Violence is effective at toppling dictators, but if that is all you do, then a new dictator will just take his place. Empathy is what stops the chain of Violence everytime. That is when strong men and women say no to Violence and yes to a better system that treats everybody with human dignity and rights. Even those whom we don’t emotionally feel deserve it. A criminal who has committed a terrible crime should be locked up and not be around the public, but while he or she is in prison, he or she must still be treated as a human because they are one. If we start making exceptions we lose our humanity and take away theirs. Then we have death penalties which sometimes results in wrong convictions and wrongful executions. Emotionally, I can feel that the death penalty is justice, but that is just emotions. In reality, it is one step toward a aystem that stops seeing people as people and that shit trickles down.
Also, having empathy for someone doesn’t mean you have sympathy for them. Acknowledging that someone is a human doesn’t mean you bow down to their world view.
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I do agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don’t understand the moral consequence. One do not have to think they’re too smart or too pure to take some kind of solace from the fact that there’s one less fascist walking the earth.
To me, that has nothing to do with being “better” as a human. It’s just that their project means my/our death. The more they grow, the more we die and vice versa. I do not dehumanize them nor do I think they’re stupid or deserve anything.
It’s as simple as : the more they grow, the more anything I care for will wither away.
You’re right, but it makes people uncomfortable so they don’t want to agree with you.
This isn’t like the economy. It IS a zero sum game. If they succeed, we lose. If they thrive in life, we lose. If they continue to live at all, we lose.
They can CHOOSE to come back to humanity, unlike their victims, but I won’t give them any consideration as having value until they do.
All that was said was that they are still human. Even if we dislike them. That is all. I find it interesting how defensive people are being about acknowledging that a terrible person is still a person.
If we stop acknowledging a bad person as a being a person, we have become what we hate. Its got nothing to do with caring or not caring about a kkk member dying. All we have reacted to was the claim that the guy wasn’t a human. That is the dangerous part.
ICYMI, I didn’t want to sound defensive. I mean it’s an interesting conservation, and I found it intriguing that I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote yet arrive at a slightly different conclusion. People don’t always look to pick fights, sometimes, it’s just about discussion.
So give her partial credit on the community service part of the sentence?
The only one talking about community service is you, I fear. Can’t give credit for anything that wasn’t said.