grilling me for sources when you link one study that doesn’t even mention keto is crazy. and it’s very hard to take you seriously when you keep linking a literal diet agency who profits off the exact narrative you’re pushing, it would be a LOT better if you stuck to your arguments alone and didn’t link them
(the presence or absence of carbs has a huge effect on whether or not fat and salt will make you diabetic or fat)
so the foundational lecture about this is “sugar: the bitter truth” by robert lustig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM). regrettably, it’s a lecture which is 90 minutes long (and gets quite in the weeds with the biochem), so i’ll summarize it for you (although it’s a very good watch, he’s both smart and a fantastic speaker):
he shows the the link between fructose and metabolic syndrome / the obesity epidemic (also a note that fructose does not suppress ghrelin, the hunger hormone)
he shows that the relationship between coronary heart disease and dietary fat only works with the presence of sucrose (the original study showing this didn’t do the math correctly)
he shows that LDL is measured in two separate types, one which correlates with heart disease and one which doesn’t. he shows that the bad type of LDL raises in relationship to carbs.
overall, the argument lustig makes is that the healthiest diets are either (in energy) all carb or all fat. so, you’ll note that i’m not actually shit talking a (whole-foods*) plant-based diet. i think it’s probably good and just sounds really miserable to be on (same with any carb-based diet); but, in my opinion, healthiness is just about finding the type of misery you can live with. it turns out my preferred misery is no carbs. if yours is no fats, or only plants, i’m not gonna stop you. good for you
in fact, i think it’s significant to, here, point out that one could dovegetarian or vegan keto; and i don’t think many people would argue with you that a plant-based keto is probably healthier than an animal-based keto. it’s just really hard; and looking at the risks of metabolic syndrome that folks who typically go keto have to weigh (they have a typical profile of: not having good impulse control when eating, suffer from little satiation when eating high carb foods, tend to really enjoy junk food) - the animal-based keto wins out hugely as something that’s both healthier and practically maintainable
you wanna go tell people on keto to eat more greens? please, be my guest. i’ll join you
(fat is the most satiating macronutrient)
honestly, this seemed like conventional wisdom to me. i didn’t think we were going to argue about this- what’s more satiating, a shot of heavy cream or literally any carb of comparable energy level? but i also think this probably varies by individual (please note my quote from my last post “although it’s certainly possible this varies by individual”); however, for the average person, i think it’s probably difficult to overeat fats; and it’s easy enough for the average person to overeat carbs. these are basically stereotypical truths lmao
anyways, this does appear to be a generally supported statement, even if my personal experience leads me to think it’s probably still varies more by individual:
and a lot of it probably has to do with your statement:
I don’t think feeling sick is the same thing as satiety.
LMAO which is so funny because i’ve eaten a lot of carbs and a lot of protein and i just do not feel full compared to when i get a good dose of fat. and if that doesn’t do it for you, that’s cool! do what works for you. it just so happens keto works for some people, too. i really wish you would allow for different people having different experiences in your arguments
At least you admit that people quite often experience deficiencies on keto, saves me the trouble of breaking out the studies.
😭 yeah salt management on keto is a pretty normal thing, it causes the phenomenon people often get when starting keto called “keto flu”, which is caused by the loss in water weight that you get on keto (also where your body buffers salts), as well. just like on vegan diets, you often need to supplement protein, but i’m not out here putting you on blast for that shit LMAO
The single most important thing for diabetes treatment is weight loss and maintaining a healthy bodyweight.
this is really funny because i’m not overweight. or, well, if you could 1.5 bmi out of the “healthy” range on the bmi scale? /shrug but i’m not like, obese like a lot of folks with diabetes are. i think i just ate like shit for too long as a teenager and ruined my ability to handle sugar. that didn’t go away because i lost weight and stopped eating sugar (i know this because i went off keto for some time and gave myself a bunch of scary-as-shit diabetes symptoms 💀)
your all-risk mortality study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30122560/
💀 💀 💀i run into this issue a lot when i’m trying to learn about keto, because i really don’t like the definition most studies use for it. most studies claim that keto is something like ~40% carbohydrate energy in the diet; which, if you ask anyone who ACTUALLY does keto, they will tell you that is FUCKED. we’re over here on like <10% from carbs, it is ALL fats and proteins. so i don’t think think this represents keto folks very well; it doesn’t include the diet demographics in any more detail than “carbohydrate amounts of <40%/50-55%/70%+”, and given it was published in 2018 and followed people for 25 years, which was long before keto was really blew up, so i doubt anyone on keto is actually represented in here at all, or at best, a severe minority
i want to close out by saying that the choice you’re framing here between “plant based diet” and “keto diet” isn’t a real choice. the choice most people who go on keto are making is between “horrible shitty diet that will kill you” and “keto”. plant-based, in itself, is a horribly unreliable guideline when even rice and potatoes can make you sick; there are plenty of processed “plant based” foods which are also just garbage. it’s just not a guideline that will work for many people in the keto group
you can (kind of) make a stronger argument by saying “whole food plant based diet”, but then you lose out a bunch of people who don’t have time to cook or don’t like plants very much; that, in combination with “rice and potatoes are still very sugary”, means that you actually have to have quite a restricted diet on top of it being “plant based” to execute it correctly
this is not the case with keto. no carbs. that’s it, that’s the rule
unfortunately, the long term evidence that keto is safe or unsafe is hard to come by. it’s not really been studied a lot; it’s still relatively new and the populations that they would study tend to drop the diet due to non-compliance (i.e. they wanna eat carbs). so yeah, like, maybe it would be more accurate to say “we don’t really know” rather than “it’s safe” or “it’s unsafe”. i think it’s fairly easy to say it’s better, even long term, than the shitty diet we would otherwise be eating, so i still generally advocate for it. i don’t think people should not do something that improves their overall health, just because it might be bad like 20-30+ years down the line. it will almost certainly be better than how they would get there otherwise
grilling me for sources when you link one study that doesn’t even mention keto is crazy. and it’s very hard to take you seriously when you keep linking a literal diet agency who profits off the exact narrative you’re pushing, it would be a LOT better if you stuck to your arguments alone and didn’t link them
(the presence or absence of carbs has a huge effect on whether or not fat and salt will make you diabetic or fat) so the foundational lecture about this is “sugar: the bitter truth” by robert lustig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM). regrettably, it’s a lecture which is 90 minutes long (and gets quite in the weeds with the biochem), so i’ll summarize it for you (although it’s a very good watch, he’s both smart and a fantastic speaker):
overall, the argument lustig makes is that the healthiest diets are either (in energy) all carb or all fat. so, you’ll note that i’m not actually shit talking a (whole-foods*) plant-based diet. i think it’s probably good and just sounds really miserable to be on (same with any carb-based diet); but, in my opinion, healthiness is just about finding the type of misery you can live with. it turns out my preferred misery is no carbs. if yours is no fats, or only plants, i’m not gonna stop you. good for you
in fact, i think it’s significant to, here, point out that one could do vegetarian or vegan keto; and i don’t think many people would argue with you that a plant-based keto is probably healthier than an animal-based keto. it’s just really hard; and looking at the risks of metabolic syndrome that folks who typically go keto have to weigh (they have a typical profile of: not having good impulse control when eating, suffer from little satiation when eating high carb foods, tend to really enjoy junk food) - the animal-based keto wins out hugely as something that’s both healthier and practically maintainable
you wanna go tell people on keto to eat more greens? please, be my guest. i’ll join you
(fat is the most satiating macronutrient) honestly, this seemed like conventional wisdom to me. i didn’t think we were going to argue about this- what’s more satiating, a shot of heavy cream or literally any carb of comparable energy level? but i also think this probably varies by individual (please note my quote from my last post “although it’s certainly possible this varies by individual”); however, for the average person, i think it’s probably difficult to overeat fats; and it’s easy enough for the average person to overeat carbs. these are basically stereotypical truths lmao
anyways, this does appear to be a generally supported statement, even if my personal experience leads me to think it’s probably still varies more by individual:
and a lot of it probably has to do with your statement:
i want to close out by saying that the choice you’re framing here between “plant based diet” and “keto diet” isn’t a real choice. the choice most people who go on keto are making is between “horrible shitty diet that will kill you” and “keto”. plant-based, in itself, is a horribly unreliable guideline when even rice and potatoes can make you sick; there are plenty of processed “plant based” foods which are also just garbage. it’s just not a guideline that will work for many people in the keto group
you can (kind of) make a stronger argument by saying “whole food plant based diet”, but then you lose out a bunch of people who don’t have time to cook or don’t like plants very much; that, in combination with “rice and potatoes are still very sugary”, means that you actually have to have quite a restricted diet on top of it being “plant based” to execute it correctly
this is not the case with keto. no carbs. that’s it, that’s the rule
unfortunately, the long term evidence that keto is safe or unsafe is hard to come by. it’s not really been studied a lot; it’s still relatively new and the populations that they would study tend to drop the diet due to non-compliance (i.e. they wanna eat carbs). so yeah, like, maybe it would be more accurate to say “we don’t really know” rather than “it’s safe” or “it’s unsafe”. i think it’s fairly easy to say it’s better, even long term, than the shitty diet we would otherwise be eating, so i still generally advocate for it. i don’t think people should not do something that improves their overall health, just because it might be bad like 20-30+ years down the line. it will almost certainly be better than how they would get there otherwise