like, it certaily is on paper, from a moral standpoint of causing less harm to the environmant
but “the environmant” is a really vague term. After all, by not allowing John Flesheater have his steak, you’re still technically harming an animal, just morally this time :D (and possibly in terms of health a bit, if there are some kind of external dietary limitations in a given local region)
Another problem is that farm animals don’t talk much about their feelings, ro we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them, thus we can’t say whether we’re helping them by stopping the process.
But that raises another question: “how one would know if they’re happy, if they never experienced happiness?”
I think veganism is a vanity that we can afford given the right circumstances, that some cultures also try to dress up as a virtue. So if one derives joy or piece of mind from it, they shoule do it as long as they do.
judging by the depth of reasoning of my opponents so far, veganism is not only not a virtue, it’s a cope of the fact that ahy life form is inherenly cruel towards the other in a system with limited resources.
I’d like to be dabated tho, cuz it sounds kinda not nice.
Another problem is that farm animals don’t talk much about their feelings, ro we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them, thus we can’t say whether we’re helping them by stopping the process.
Pure cope. We know how badly animals are hurt by factory farming methods, and there isn’t a non-factory method that I’m aware of that can meet the demand for meat.
But that raises another question: “how one would know if they’re happy, if they never experienced happiness?”
How do I know you’ve ever been happy? I’ve never seen it, so I can assume you haven’t, right? (This is how nonsensical your argument sounds. We can see farm animals get excited about things the experience, like happy cows skipping to their field)
bruh, how do *I* know if i’ye ever been happy?
in my experience, happiness is a mere appreciation that something got better than it was before.
we know how badly animals are hurt…
no we don’i. Just like with any other alive being, we can only assume, based on what that alive being is communicating, and our personal perception of reality and experience. A human can be hurt, but we won’t know, as long as they won’t communicate. Everything else is an assumption.
You might say that lack of communication doesn’t imply lack of causd harm, and i’d agree with you, but if we’re so much concerned on the caused harm — ad absurdum, we should become autotrophes, as plants have systems for signaling when they’re being harmed too. This liiterally serves the same purpose as our “feeling hurt”.
Farm animals were raised with a single purpose of being farmed, and wouldn’t have existed otherwise. Lucky is a pig that was chosen to be a pet rather than a meat, but so as lucky is a man born ta a wealthy eenough environment to chose when what and where they want to eat.
I have a vanity of choice now, but not so long ago my diet consisted of buckwheat, occasional veggies, and even more occasional meat, as a treat, when the days were good.
And once again, veganism is higly moral, as long as you count every chicken breast you haven’t bought as a saved life. And i think you should do it if it makes you happier, but the meatgrinder won’t stop or even slow down, not to mention that in reality, we’re all are bastards, and i’m not talking just humans, life itself is all about “eat or be eaten” and always were.
Trust me when i say that chickens don’t concern themselve with morality, i’ve lived in a village and seen some shit they can do to their kin. Just as, basically any animal.
So if you’re really so good of heart and highly moral, you better help a fellow human in the first place. Paradoxically, we’re the most moral species there are, and the most capable in terms of doing more good, despite all the atrocities. Before thinking about making happy animals, let’s think about making happy humans, it’s just more optimal this way.
So, is veganism moral? Yes, if you don’t think about it for too long, as long as it’s only your choice, and as long as everyone else in close viscinity already received help from you.
I think buddhists is a good case for highly moral veganism. Otherwise, veganism is a hobby with dubious goals. No judging tho, everyone has those. I too enjoy my hobbies for the process and not for the result.
I’m here cause i’m mildly drunk and cause i wanna entertain myself and people of lemmy with a philosophical blabber. No hurt feelings.
Anywho, the article you provided… It seems like a dramatic personal story of a previously ignorant of basic biology human, born and raised in a city. I’ve debated the “wheher we could see…” from a philosophical standpoint. I was raised in a village, where we had our own livestock, and i’ve seen my share of cruelty.
I’m making up this debate not because i support cruelty. I want to be the world as little cruel as possible. But there is a problem. Being kind and generous, as opposed to being cruel, is a vanity. Nobody wants to be cruel, as everybody is human, and averybody wants to sleep with a clean mind, knowing they did nothing wrong.
So if you think that veganism is highly moral, you’d better tell me the plan to make everybody vegan, so everyone would have a sound sleep at night. Be careful for your plan not to cause more harm than there were initially tho, as it would barely make a world into a better place then.
The article makes for a dramatic story, but otherwise offers no solution to the conundrum, not to mention that it barely relates to the topic, that , might i remind you, being “is veganism a virtue”
what do you think veganism is?
Mostly self-righteous virtue-signaling.
But veganism isn’t widely accepted as a virtue, so who are we supposedly signaling to by being combative?
Edit: also you apparently agree that veganism is a virtue?
“is veganism a virtue”
sounds like a topic for a debate
like, it certaily is on paper, from a moral standpoint of causing less harm to the environmant
but “the environmant” is a really vague term. After all, by not allowing John Flesheater have his steak, you’re still technically harming an animal, just morally this time :D (and possibly in terms of health a bit, if there are some kind of external dietary limitations in a given local region)
Another problem is that farm animals don’t talk much about their feelings, ro we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them, thus we can’t say whether we’re helping them by stopping the process.
But that raises another question: “how one would know if they’re happy, if they never experienced happiness?”
I think veganism is a vanity that we can afford given the right circumstances, that some cultures also try to dress up as a virtue. So if one derives joy or piece of mind from it, they shoule do it as long as they do.
oof sorry, not coming drunk to lemmy again :D
judging by the depth of reasoning of my opponents so far, veganism is not only not a virtue, it’s a cope of the fact that ahy life form is inherenly cruel towards the other in a system with limited resources.
I’d like to be dabated tho, cuz it sounds kinda not nice.
Pure cope. We know how badly animals are hurt by factory farming methods, and there isn’t a non-factory method that I’m aware of that can meet the demand for meat.
How do I know you’ve ever been happy? I’ve never seen it, so I can assume you haven’t, right? (This is how nonsensical your argument sounds. We can see farm animals get excited about things the experience, like happy cows skipping to their field)
bruh, how do *I* know if i’ye ever been happy? in my experience, happiness is a mere appreciation that something got better than it was before.
no we don’i. Just like with any other alive being, we can only assume, based on what that alive being is communicating, and our personal perception of reality and experience. A human can be hurt, but we won’t know, as long as they won’t communicate. Everything else is an assumption.
You might say that lack of communication doesn’t imply lack of causd harm, and i’d agree with you, but if we’re so much concerned on the caused harm — ad absurdum, we should become autotrophes, as plants have systems for signaling when they’re being harmed too. This liiterally serves the same purpose as our “feeling hurt”.
Farm animals were raised with a single purpose of being farmed, and wouldn’t have existed otherwise. Lucky is a pig that was chosen to be a pet rather than a meat, but so as lucky is a man born ta a wealthy eenough environment to chose when what and where they want to eat.
I have a vanity of choice now, but not so long ago my diet consisted of buckwheat, occasional veggies, and even more occasional meat, as a treat, when the days were good.
And once again, veganism is higly moral, as long as you count every chicken breast you haven’t bought as a saved life. And i think you should do it if it makes you happier, but the meatgrinder won’t stop or even slow down, not to mention that in reality, we’re all are bastards, and i’m not talking just humans, life itself is all about “eat or be eaten” and always were.
Trust me when i say that chickens don’t concern themselve with morality, i’ve lived in a village and seen some shit they can do to their kin. Just as, basically any animal.
So if you’re really so good of heart and highly moral, you better help a fellow human in the first place. Paradoxically, we’re the most moral species there are, and the most capable in terms of doing more good, despite all the atrocities. Before thinking about making happy animals, let’s think about making happy humans, it’s just more optimal this way.
So, is veganism moral? Yes, if you don’t think about it for too long, as long as it’s only your choice, and as long as everyone else in close viscinity already received help from you.
I think buddhists is a good case for highly moral veganism. Otherwise, veganism is a hobby with dubious goals. No judging tho, everyone has those. I too enjoy my hobbies for the process and not for the result.
https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/plants-are-alive/resources
Please read this and more importantly watch the material linked to see if you still think that “we can’t really know if we’re actually harming them”
https://www.theempathyproject.co.uk/magazine/the-mothers-of-dairy
Like I dont have time to get into all the different things going on with your post, it’s a lot, so lets focus on that one thing.
if you don’t have time then why bother debating?
I’m here cause i’m mildly drunk and cause i wanna entertain myself and people of lemmy with a philosophical blabber. No hurt feelings.
Anywho, the article you provided… It seems like a dramatic personal story of a previously ignorant of basic biology human, born and raised in a city. I’ve debated the “wheher we could see…” from a philosophical standpoint. I was raised in a village, where we had our own livestock, and i’ve seen my share of cruelty.
I’m making up this debate not because i support cruelty. I want to be the world as little cruel as possible. But there is a problem. Being kind and generous, as opposed to being cruel, is a vanity. Nobody wants to be cruel, as everybody is human, and averybody wants to sleep with a clean mind, knowing they did nothing wrong.
So if you think that veganism is highly moral, you’d better tell me the plan to make everybody vegan, so everyone would have a sound sleep at night. Be careful for your plan not to cause more harm than there were initially tho, as it would barely make a world into a better place then.
The article makes for a dramatic story, but otherwise offers no solution to the conundrum, not to mention that it barely relates to the topic, that , might i remind you, being “is veganism a virtue”
But is it?
?