I really hope this pushes a lot of senior leadership over the edge. I’m sure there are a good number who were doing the “this is fine” routine up to now, but this should remove all doubt that they are dealing with a child. I hope he strikes the most combative, patronizing tone possible.
They actively sat on their hands waiting to see who would win when trump led a violent insurrection against Congress and the VPOTUS. There is no line.
But, to add on: In a past life, I had to interface with a lot of military folk as part of my job. And… there is basically a horse shoe effect.
The lowliest of enlisted? They “care” but they also “have no power” and “am legally obligated to do what I am told” and “Fuck you for not respecting the sacrifices I am making for your freedom”. The most senior of NCOs and the most junior of COs are the ones who actually have opinions and might actually “resist” but it tends to be “I got a mortgage and four kids” levels of resistance where they mostly just look for jobs elsewhere. Then you get higher up on the officer chain and it is just endless political toadied who will insist “I believe in the military, not in the politicians” all while looking for exciting new mouthwashes to give Ice and Fire blowies because they want a promotion.
All the generals in that room? Inside they might be rolling their eyes. Outside? They’ll be cheering and acting like an industry plant at a press conference because they know there are cameras on them and they wall are hoping that someone above them gets fired and they get that job.
Nail on the head. There’s also the whole “we’ll prepare you for a job outside the military” that seems to just churn out more contractor and civilian government/military jobs. Hell, its heavily incentivized for prior military to get a GS job, double up on that retirement pay.
I can go on very long rants about how much I hate the “support the troops” mindset and how much of that was a manufactured response to how the draftees who raped and murdered their way through Vietnam were vilified at rallies. But people seem to still think the year is 1988 and war is unthinkable and everyone in the military is just there for free college. And while there were still people doing that going into The War On Terror… we had almost two decades of a forever war.
And that shows. While I dislike the ableist connotations of it… the reality is that there are people who are going to get the most out of a college education and there are people who… aren’t. And the former? They know that the military is just going to mean they are 2-8 years older than everyone else applying for the same positions and are probably going to be doing so with PTSD from the killing and possibly even rapes that get covered up (fun reminder: The reported rate of sexual assault among female active-duty US military members was 6.8 percent as of 2023. That is what the military admitted to…). That isn’t to say there aren’t some true geniuses coming out of the military and getting a PhD and so forth but… they are the ones who knew what they were getting into when they enlisted and all that entails.
So increasingly you just have the crowd who joined because everyone in their family “served” and the people who bought in to “the only way you can get out of the generational poverty we have forced you into is to kill some brown kids for us”. And you get “I joined the military to learn to work on cars”.
So yeah. Very much a recruiting pipeline for cops and other “thug with guns” occupations. And if you exhibit even basic competence at the combat side of things? You have your pick of PMCs looking for deniable killers.
And, just to be clear: The US Military is a WONDERFUL job if you are not the right demographic to be dragged behind a building and raped and you don’t mind using force against whoever you are told. In a lot of ways, it is the single best experiment proving the value of UBI and managed economies. But… understand that it is a job about enabling the murder and subjugation of enemies of the state. And that you won’t need to get on a 13 hour flight to find said enemies in the very near future.
As an aside: I love the Business (ha!) Insider youtube videos where they do an “authorized account” interview or just look at a “day in the life” of a military adjacent role. And if you want a truly fucking terrifying video, go watch the recent one where they interviewed a former Blackwater mercenary. That shit was even more horrifying than the white supremacist biker who was pretty open about the murders he committed (I want to say he narced to avoid consequences? Been a minute).
a manufactured response to how the draftees who raped and murdered their way through Vietnam were vilified at rallies
I was at those rallies, and I saw people punched and spit on. Those people were demonstrating against the war. I was one.
The story of returning draftees being given a bad reception is projection. Nobody blamed the poor teenagers who got rounded up and sent over. It was well known that it was the fault of the top politicians and the generals. But the only thuggish behavior I ever saw was from the counter-demonstrators who were bused in to harass demonstrators, as if billy clubs, tear gas and false arrest weren’t harassment enough.
They actively sat on their hands waiting to see who would win when trump led a violent insurrection against Congress and the VPOTUS. There is no line.
That’s not completely true. They repeatedly made these pretty unusual public statements re-emphasizing that the federal military has no role in domestic politics, and reminding the people they’re leading exactly what to do about any weird orders that came their way. It’s only statements, sure. But also, it shows they were paying attention and had the right way of looking at it in mind.
I actually have a lot more faith in the main military of the US than I do in domestic law enforcement to have the right reactions about ICE and the overall takeover, and obviously a hell of a lot more than the “oh we can’t have a government shutdown, that would be ever so inconvenient” crowd that is supposed to be an opposition party. Personally I think they probably already despise Hegseth, but anything like this that he wants to do to pour salt in the wound, provide them direct personal aggravation and make himself look even more like a self-important jackass, I’m in favor of.
Yeah… Fuck off with that “they were just following orders” nonsense. At least let the jackboots be the ones to say it.
re-emphasizing that the federal military has no role in domestic politics
Congress and the VPOTUS were being actively hunted by a large armed group. Local law enforcement clearly was not qualified to handle it and the exiting POTUS, who has well documented ties to russia et al, was actively supporting the insurrection.
That is not “domestic politics”. That is an attack on US soil. But, because nobody had confirmed enough of the mob had russian accents, it was clearly not the military’s problem. Unlike, say, kids protesting or getting a bit too rowdy after a sports game where suddenly the national guard are all ready to start busting some teeth.
But also, it shows they were paying attention and had the right way of looking at it in mind.
Personally, I don’t think “We side with the winners” is the right way of looking at it. But you do you.
Fuck off with that “they were just following orders” nonsense.
The subject of my comment was that they were specifically instructing the people under them not to just follow orders.
Congress and the VPOTUS were being actively hunted by a large armed group. Local law enforcement clearly was not qualified to handle it and the exiting POTUS, who has well documented ties to russia et al, was actively supporting the insurrection.
Here’s a pretty good outline of how things fucked up so badly. Most of that is talking about the National Guard, not the federal military which I was specifically talking about. They’re very different.
I don’t really have much to add to that summary. You might say that some mid-level commanders in the Guard should have seen what was going on and just charged in without waiting. I get that, you might be right. I don’t think the federal military should have done the same thing. They’re designed to kill motherfuckers at a big scale. I think if they’d charged in and started shooting anyone who was still in the Capitol who didn’t belong there it would have been a lot worse than what happened. Maybe not. I don’t think it’s totally crazy or “waiting to see who wins” for them not to do that though.
Unlike, say, kids protesting or getting a bit too rowdy after a sports game where suddenly the national guard are all ready to start busting some teeth.
If you want to talk about the National Guard all of a sudden, then sure. Like I say, they’re very different; most of the Guard are basically civilians who do a little bit of military work on the weekends. They do flood relief, they work alongside ordinary people every day during the week (mostly). They did kill some kids at Kent State several generations ago in a wildly different time of American politics and viewpoint, barely removed from the Red Scare times and World War 2. What happened after that? What sports event, what kids protesting and when? I feel like you’re thinking of some totally different event that didn’t involve the Guard, or just wandering off into thinking that your stereotypes about how things work are reality without any connection at all to actual events. For most of the BLM protests, the Guard functioned more or less to protect the protestors against the police for example (while getting bottles thrown at them and people yelling at them as if they were the enemy.)
The national guard is the military. Or are we going to get down to “Look, so what if the Army, Marines, and Navy are all running gas chambers. The Air Force would save us if only they were allowed to. Uhm. I mean, just the PJs. But they need to get flown in so they can’t help us. But Abrahamic God Bless The Military”
They’re designed to kill motherfuckers at a big scale. I think if they’d charged in and started shooting anyone who was still in the Capitol who didn’t belong there it would have been a lot worse than what happened.
We had an armed force rushing and occupying Congress to murder Congress and the VPOTUS under the orders of a man who was only still POTUS because the changeover he was actively trying to prevent hadn’t occured yet. This was actively violating the will of the people and the constitution.
If there is any situation where you unload on a crowd like they are brown people in a hospital with a few pesky journalists in the middle…
For most of the BLM protests, the Guard functioned more or less to protect the protestors against the police for example (while getting bottles thrown at them and people yelling at them as if they were the enemy.)
VERY strong disagree there
But, regardless: We have the military actively causing terror and enforcing the will of the fascists in 2025 as they occupy cities and confuse NIMBYs over whether they are allowed to complain about the heavily armed people sleeping in alleyways.
The fact fo the matter is: The US Military was tested. The absolute best case interpretation is that they are so incompetent and disorganized that they were unable to protect the people they “serve”. And there is absolutely zero indication that is gonna change.
Yes, but the structure is very different. The Guard operates on a state by state basis (for reasons which now seem remarkably farsighted), the rest of the military is a single centrally organized force based in DC. It’s fine to talk about one or the other, or “the military” in general obviously, but specifically for something like January 6th it makes very little sense to talk about them both as a collective, talking about what they did or didn’t do. That’s why in my original message I specified “the federal military” which it seemed like was what you were talking about in the comment I was responding to.
The Air Force would save us if only they were allowed to. Uhm. I mean, just the PJs. But they need to get flown in so they can’t help us. But Abrahamic God Bless The Military”
Literally no idea what you are saying here.
For most of the BLM protests, the Guard functioned more or less to protect the protestors against the police for example (while getting bottles thrown at them and people yelling at them as if they were the enemy.)
https://archive.is/Af922 (check out the part where the big scandal was flying their helicopters too low, and the account of the Guardsmen observing the Park Police attacking protestors and being alarmed by it)
but specifically for something like January 6th it makes very little sense to talk about them both as a collective, talking about what they did or didn’t do.
No, it makes perfect sense.
Let’s step through the workflow.
Holy shit. A bunch of armed white people are trying to lynch Congress and the VPOTUS under the orders of the man that was voted out of office.
Huh. The national guard isn’t acting
I guess that means we also shouldn’t act and should just let it play out?
And let’s do the obvious tweak that is always ignored in these attempts to Support The Troops
Holy shit. A bunch of angry hockey fans rushed the border and are going to burn down the White House… again. And the POTUS, for some reason, is not telling us to defend the American people. Maybe he is a Leafs fan?
Huh. The national guard isn’t acting
I guess that means we also shouldn’t act and should just let it play out?
Literally no idea what you are saying here.
I am pointing out the sheer and utter stupidity of insisting the military will save us. Just not THAT military. And I am doing so by extending that to the “it would be humorous if it weren’t so true” extreme.
As for the rest: The national guard is the military. You can gla-err, praise them all you want for not unloading on protesters. But the fact of the matter is they were there as a threat in case the protests “got out of hand” and were officially there to support the law enforcement and fat white kids with guns on the ground.
They are the enemy until they stop fucking acting on its behalf.
So on what are you basing this picture of, of what happened?
I get what you’re saying about how simple and clear this massive constitutional crisis would have been to solve, and how lethal force on American soil by the foreign-focused military would have been a total improvement. Like I say, I actually do think there’s a good bit of sense there. I’m just curious to see more of your credentials by learning about the accuracy of some of your other statements. Kind of get a baseline. Surely you’re on board for that so you can help demonstrate your mastery of these issues right?
So on what are you basing this picture of, of what happened with BLM and the Guard? Tell me more.
Yeah, piss off all the leaders of your military and expect them to all just collectively quietly fade away, that does sound like the kind of political strategy a complete idiot who has read no history would pursue
There may be flaws to the plan. As a management style it tends to increase short term profits, which is why they do it. Of course it also tends to destroy the company, but the wealthy never worry about that.
I really hope this pushes a lot of senior leadership over the edge. I’m sure there are a good number who were doing the “this is fine” routine up to now, but this should remove all doubt that they are dealing with a child. I hope he strikes the most combative, patronizing tone possible.
I was thinking the same thing. I’ve been disappointed over and over again this year, but I still have some hope that something’s gonna give.
We’re talking about Hegseth. That’s the only tone he has.
They actively sat on their hands waiting to see who would win when trump led a violent insurrection against Congress and the VPOTUS. There is no line.
But, to add on: In a past life, I had to interface with a lot of military folk as part of my job. And… there is basically a horse shoe effect.
The lowliest of enlisted? They “care” but they also “have no power” and “am legally obligated to do what I am told” and “Fuck you for not respecting the sacrifices I am making for your freedom”. The most senior of NCOs and the most junior of COs are the ones who actually have opinions and might actually “resist” but it tends to be “I got a mortgage and four kids” levels of resistance where they mostly just look for jobs elsewhere. Then you get higher up on the officer chain and it is just endless political toadied who will insist “I believe in the military, not in the politicians” all while looking for exciting new mouthwashes to give Ice and Fire blowies because they want a promotion.
All the generals in that room? Inside they might be rolling their eyes. Outside? They’ll be cheering and acting like an industry plant at a press conference because they know there are cameras on them and they wall are hoping that someone above them gets fired and they get that job.
Nail on the head. There’s also the whole “we’ll prepare you for a job outside the military” that seems to just churn out more contractor and civilian government/military jobs. Hell, its heavily incentivized for prior military to get a GS job, double up on that retirement pay.
Yeah…
I can go on very long rants about how much I hate the “support the troops” mindset and how much of that was a manufactured response to how the draftees who raped and murdered their way through Vietnam were vilified at rallies. But people seem to still think the year is 1988 and war is unthinkable and everyone in the military is just there for free college. And while there were still people doing that going into The War On Terror… we had almost two decades of a forever war.
And that shows. While I dislike the ableist connotations of it… the reality is that there are people who are going to get the most out of a college education and there are people who… aren’t. And the former? They know that the military is just going to mean they are 2-8 years older than everyone else applying for the same positions and are probably going to be doing so with PTSD from the killing and possibly even rapes that get covered up (fun reminder: The reported rate of sexual assault among female active-duty US military members was 6.8 percent as of 2023. That is what the military admitted to…). That isn’t to say there aren’t some true geniuses coming out of the military and getting a PhD and so forth but… they are the ones who knew what they were getting into when they enlisted and all that entails.
So increasingly you just have the crowd who joined because everyone in their family “served” and the people who bought in to “the only way you can get out of the generational poverty we have forced you into is to kill some brown kids for us”. And you get “I joined the military to learn to work on cars”.
So yeah. Very much a recruiting pipeline for cops and other “thug with guns” occupations. And if you exhibit even basic competence at the combat side of things? You have your pick of PMCs looking for deniable killers.
And, just to be clear: The US Military is a WONDERFUL job if you are not the right demographic to be dragged behind a building and raped and you don’t mind using force against whoever you are told. In a lot of ways, it is the single best experiment proving the value of UBI and managed economies. But… understand that it is a job about enabling the murder and subjugation of enemies of the state. And that you won’t need to get on a 13 hour flight to find said enemies in the very near future.
As an aside: I love the Business (ha!) Insider youtube videos where they do an “authorized account” interview or just look at a “day in the life” of a military adjacent role. And if you want a truly fucking terrifying video, go watch the recent one where they interviewed a former Blackwater mercenary. That shit was even more horrifying than the white supremacist biker who was pretty open about the murders he committed (I want to say he narced to avoid consequences? Been a minute).
I was at those rallies, and I saw people punched and spit on. Those people were demonstrating against the war. I was one.
The story of returning draftees being given a bad reception is projection. Nobody blamed the poor teenagers who got rounded up and sent over. It was well known that it was the fault of the top politicians and the generals. But the only thuggish behavior I ever saw was from the counter-demonstrators who were bused in to harass demonstrators, as if billy clubs, tear gas and false arrest weren’t harassment enough.
Corruption with arms contractors is rampant.
That’s not completely true. They repeatedly made these pretty unusual public statements re-emphasizing that the federal military has no role in domestic politics, and reminding the people they’re leading exactly what to do about any weird orders that came their way. It’s only statements, sure. But also, it shows they were paying attention and had the right way of looking at it in mind.
I actually have a lot more faith in the main military of the US than I do in domestic law enforcement to have the right reactions about ICE and the overall takeover, and obviously a hell of a lot more than the “oh we can’t have a government shutdown, that would be ever so inconvenient” crowd that is supposed to be an opposition party. Personally I think they probably already despise Hegseth, but anything like this that he wants to do to pour salt in the wound, provide them direct personal aggravation and make himself look even more like a self-important jackass, I’m in favor of.
Yeah… Fuck off with that “they were just following orders” nonsense. At least let the jackboots be the ones to say it.
Congress and the VPOTUS were being actively hunted by a large armed group. Local law enforcement clearly was not qualified to handle it and the exiting POTUS, who has well documented ties to russia et al, was actively supporting the insurrection.
That is not “domestic politics”. That is an attack on US soil. But, because nobody had confirmed enough of the mob had russian accents, it was clearly not the military’s problem. Unlike, say, kids protesting or getting a bit too rowdy after a sports game where suddenly the national guard are all ready to start busting some teeth.
Personally, I don’t think “We side with the winners” is the right way of looking at it. But you do you.
The subject of my comment was that they were specifically instructing the people under them not to just follow orders.
Here’s a pretty good outline of how things fucked up so badly. Most of that is talking about the National Guard, not the federal military which I was specifically talking about. They’re very different.
I don’t really have much to add to that summary. You might say that some mid-level commanders in the Guard should have seen what was going on and just charged in without waiting. I get that, you might be right. I don’t think the federal military should have done the same thing. They’re designed to kill motherfuckers at a big scale. I think if they’d charged in and started shooting anyone who was still in the Capitol who didn’t belong there it would have been a lot worse than what happened. Maybe not. I don’t think it’s totally crazy or “waiting to see who wins” for them not to do that though.
If you want to talk about the National Guard all of a sudden, then sure. Like I say, they’re very different; most of the Guard are basically civilians who do a little bit of military work on the weekends. They do flood relief, they work alongside ordinary people every day during the week (mostly). They did kill some kids at Kent State several generations ago in a wildly different time of American politics and viewpoint, barely removed from the Red Scare times and World War 2. What happened after that? What sports event, what kids protesting and when? I feel like you’re thinking of some totally different event that didn’t involve the Guard, or just wandering off into thinking that your stereotypes about how things work are reality without any connection at all to actual events. For most of the BLM protests, the Guard functioned more or less to protect the protestors against the police for example (while getting bottles thrown at them and people yelling at them as if they were the enemy.)
The national guard is the military. Or are we going to get down to “Look, so what if the Army, Marines, and Navy are all running gas chambers. The Air Force would save us if only they were allowed to. Uhm. I mean, just the PJs. But they need to get flown in so they can’t help us. But Abrahamic God Bless The Military”
We had an armed force rushing and occupying Congress to murder Congress and the VPOTUS under the orders of a man who was only still POTUS because the changeover he was actively trying to prevent hadn’t occured yet. This was actively violating the will of the people and the constitution.
If there is any situation where you unload on a crowd like they are brown people in a hospital with a few pesky journalists in the middle…
VERY strong disagree there
But, regardless: We have the military actively causing terror and enforcing the will of the fascists in 2025 as they occupy cities and confuse NIMBYs over whether they are allowed to complain about the heavily armed people sleeping in alleyways.
The fact fo the matter is: The US Military was tested. The absolute best case interpretation is that they are so incompetent and disorganized that they were unable to protect the people they “serve”. And there is absolutely zero indication that is gonna change.
Yes, but the structure is very different. The Guard operates on a state by state basis (for reasons which now seem remarkably farsighted), the rest of the military is a single centrally organized force based in DC. It’s fine to talk about one or the other, or “the military” in general obviously, but specifically for something like January 6th it makes very little sense to talk about them both as a collective, talking about what they did or didn’t do. That’s why in my original message I specified “the federal military” which it seemed like was what you were talking about in the comment I was responding to.
Literally no idea what you are saying here.
Based on what? Something like this?
So on what are you basing this picture you have, of what happened?
No, it makes perfect sense.
Let’s step through the workflow.
And let’s do the obvious tweak that is always ignored in these attempts to Support The Troops
I am pointing out the sheer and utter stupidity of insisting the military will save us. Just not THAT military. And I am doing so by extending that to the “it would be humorous if it weren’t so true” extreme.
As for the rest: The national guard is the military. You can gla-err, praise them all you want for not unloading on protesters. But the fact of the matter is they were there as a threat in case the protests “got out of hand” and were officially there to support the law enforcement and fat white kids with guns on the ground.
They are the enemy until they stop fucking acting on its behalf.
So on what are you basing this picture of, of what happened?
I get what you’re saying about how simple and clear this massive constitutional crisis would have been to solve, and how lethal force on American soil by the foreign-focused military would have been a total improvement. Like I say, I actually do think there’s a good bit of sense there. I’m just curious to see more of your credentials by learning about the accuracy of some of your other statements. Kind of get a baseline. Surely you’re on board for that so you can help demonstrate your mastery of these issues right?
So on what are you basing this picture of, of what happened with BLM and the Guard? Tell me more.
The goal is to piss them off enough to resign.
Yeah, piss off all the leaders of your military and expect them to all just collectively quietly fade away, that does sound like the kind of political strategy a complete idiot who has read no history would pursue
There may be flaws to the plan. As a management style it tends to increase short term profits, which is why they do it. Of course it also tends to destroy the company, but the wealthy never worry about that.
The thing is this company has a nuclear arsenal so the whole world’s on the payroll (so to speak)
Really can’t see people resigning high power careers because of useless meetings.
It’s not the meeting, it will be the orders to deploy against citizens and allies.
Yeah that does not flow from what you said.
They retire with a golden parachute and the king will replace them with his own minions.
That’s the other prevalent fantasy here, beyond the thought of just waiting until the next nonexistent election.
The other piece of the fantasy is that we’re going to sit here, on Lemmy, while someone rides in to save the day.
There is no someone. There is no white night. Just you.
Yeah… This’ll be the last straw…