[dude with glasses in a communist t-shirt, arguing] I’m the only leftist here, your opinions are TRASH
[dude holding a theory book on smug, arguing] Read theory you losers, you’re all WRONG
[dude in an anarchist hoodie, arguing] Nuh-uh, I’m the only leftist here, you’re SHITLIBS
[the three dudes are now caught in a cartoon fight, glasses gone flying, punches everywhere, while a firing squad of nazis are targeting them with rifles]
[a confused nazi asks] Why… why are they still arguing?
That’s my point. USSR and the CCP have arguably permanently damaged the communism “brand”.
And you talked to russians, things were even worse for nations occupied by the russians.
Trying to decouple the term and core ideas from the past actions is going to be an uphill battle forever. That requires imagination and forward thinking, but you have the folks dunking on it because of the atrocities carried out under it, and the folks on the other side that have managed to embrace those parts so hard that they can no longer sea reason or find nuance.
Yes it is exactly like how antichrists have co-opted the term Christian. For many if it ever was, it will never be clean again in their lifetime unless there’s some massive Purge. They never were Christians and, will never be christians. But as long as they’re allowed to be the face of Christianity it’s only going to hurt it as a whole. At least more than it already hurts itself.
Yes, we need a “brand” that builds upon the ideals (and some of the theory) of communism/Marxism while taking in account both history (e.g. even something as simple as democratic governance being non-negotiable) and the “spirit” and challenges of our times.
So, utopianism.
How so?
It took centuries before any liberal or democratic project managed to produce a society that wasn’t far more brutal than the USSR. Yet you don’t see people going around saying “the French Revolution permanently damaged the Democratic brand!”
Because the French Revolution didnt permanently damage democracy as a political system. And democratic system in one form or another existed for millennia before the French Revolution.
The USSR and China under the CCP permanently discredited (without any chance of rehabilitation) communism as legitimate ideology.
No one in their right mind would want anything to do with communism. It’s like asking for genocide, mass killings, gulags, lack of free expression and poverty. No one is going to do that.
And I not saying this in the polemical sense used by pro-crime/pro-corruption Americans (“this is such a socialist shirhole”).
Ok. Neither did the communist revolutions of the 20th century permanently damage communism as a political system.
As have anarchist and communistic systems.
No. They didn’t. Only too western liberals who were always hostile to communism would say that. The idea that communism is permanently dead just because capitalists didn’t like it is pure “end of history” Neo-liberalist nonsense, and basically ignores the fact that a large chunk of the worlds population still actively feels positively about these revolutionary projects; to say nothing of the people who don’t like those particular ones, but still agree with communism in general.
Besides, so called “liberal democracies” have done far more evil than the USSR or Communist China. In fact, they’re doing a repeat of the Holocaust as we speak. Does that “permanently (without any chance of rehabilitation) discredit democracy as a legitimate ideology”?
Sure, if you’re a complete dullard who has mainlined nothing but pure, concentrated cold war propaganda without any thought or consideration, without ever bothering to open a single book on political theory. Everyone else is not that stupid.
And guess what? You have genocide, mass killings, gulags, lack of free expression, and poverty now, no communism needed. In fact, communism has almost always been associated with a reduction in those things if you actually check the stats.
Yes, you are. That is exactly how you are saying it.
Watch the news, talk to people, “communism bad” is all they blurt out without thinking.
What? Most people seem pretty positive towards Communism.
Ohhhh wait, you think only white westerners are “people”
So if there one thing I’d be happy for you take out of this convo, is that I am in no way supportive of US-style polemics about “this is such a communist shithole!” or any of the variety of standardized phrases comparing “capitalism” to “communism”.
When I lived in the US, this was extremely annoying! That being said, that doesn’t mean I am going to deny reality.
But they have. There are no more communist countries. The remaining countries that are marketed as communist, have long become authoritarian capitalist countries.
There is zero mass momentum towards “communist” parties. Many “communist” parties are little more than fronts for places like russia (a hyper-capitalist shithole with a majority of the population committed to genocidal imperialism).
Anarchists and communistic system have indeed existed before the USSR/CCP China appeared, but they are not functionally comparable to an ideology-focused communist government regime.
It’s like saying commerce, competition, innovation are element of capitalism, when these things have existed before capitalism and will likely exist after capitalism (in the polemical sense) becomes mostly a matter of history books.
This is false.
This is not cold war propaganda. I was born in the USSR, as was my family. I live in a country that was occupied under the banner of communism under the USSR.
I oppose the current oligarch regime and I have an extremely negative view of the American political system. That being said, communism is not the answer.
Communism is the past. It’s history. It’s done.
We need to build something better (often inspired by the ideals of Marx), we are wasting chasing a dead end ideology; this only makes the oligarchs and the criminals stronger.
Well, I don’t see any point trying to continue to have a discussion with someone who’s just a blunt genocide denier.
Suffice to say, to all your arguments: This is false.
How am I a genocide denier? Which genocide did I deny?
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
I quoted you directly
I didn’t deny any genocide. And if you knew me better, you would understand how stupid this statement is.
I said your statement that liberal democracies have killed more people than regimes that are seen to be associated with communism is false.
To be frank with you, I think you are projecting an image of an enemy on me.
I do not like oligarchs, especially American ones because of their impact and their tendecy towards degeneracy.
I already told you I found standard US copytext around alleged differences between socialism and capitalism to be comically dumb. It’s one of the reasons why my default mode of thinking is to assume that the content of common American socio-economic arguement is gibberish (unless proven otherwise).
I think Marx is prophetic and I believe his ideas will actually be realized in the future (maybe not in our lifetimes). In contrast the theological thought leaders of US-stope oligarchy (Friedman and other “economists”) will go down in history as liars and criminal enablers; evil people.
That being said, communism as perceived by wider society is a dead end.
What we need is a new movement that reflects the dialectical materialism of the information age and offers a different mode of economic relationships to the oligarch regimes and the type of relationships that people associate with the word “communism”.
I think we agree on a lot more things than you think, with the exception of “communism” as a brand, as opposed to it’s end goals.
Under capitalism you can criticize capitalism. under communism, dissension is met with punishment.
If not death, or being institutionalised.
But you can also get institutionalised or killed under capitalism too if you say the wrong things (China, Russia, the Gulf States).
While you might not be killed in the US, but you can be harassed via lawsuits or deported to a foreign internment camp if you say the wrong things.