These discussions always assume the elections are fair, which in many states is not true.
Perhaps instead of bickering about unimportant stuff ( at least to me they are not important), everyone griping should at least check to make sure their local elections at least meet United Nations specifications? Maybe they do, but depending where you are at, probably not.
I will never ever understand political discussions done by the majority of Americans.
Political discussions between strangers probably never will be productive. I am just frustrated and fed up with the stupid ideas I see floating around. People who don’t understand the country’s politics are influencing it with this “both sides” bullshit and it’s ruined our country because now the worst imaginable humans rule over us. Before it was a mix of people between true human garbage and genuinely well meaning people. It is idiotic to suggest everyone is fully on one side or the other, but that’s what these idiots are peddling. And it’s working unfortunately.
Eh, it’s been a long journey for me. Years ago I was active in the Democratic Party in Texas, later I was a keyboard warrior who wrote millions of words, none of which did any good.
Now I just want fair elections; again writing words, now in a very small community, that also does no good.
But I’m done with the partisan stuff, and think both sides are equally out of their minds.
Democracies need accurate ballot counting, most states fail this. The primaries in both parties and the general elections have been tampered with for decades in many states. This has totally changed the character and leadership of both parties over the decades.
This is not a falsifiable argument because the only way to prove the above is wrong is to not use the election machines run by private organizations. While at the same time exit polls and stats hint of extreme ballot stuffing by these very companies. It’s not rocket science.
But, most commentators and social media participants in USA politics don’t care or want to know.
The ballot manipulation will allow democrats to win the midterms by a landslide, and most likely have the presidency again in 2028, and people who want paper ballots will be rendered mute again by most. Then next cycle the republicans will win again!
It’s a very long game, with each iteration moving more wealth away from the majority. And the only way to fix it is with paper ballots counted in front of witnesses and unlimited recounts allowed. Even then, it will take a long time to fix
But I’m done with the partisan stuff, and think both sides are equally out of their minds.
Look, I can get behind the general sentiment of your comment, but this is just wrong and it’s dangerous to keep pushing this lie. Ain’t nothing equal about it.
Democrats are out of their minds because they, as a party and a majority of participants: embrace electronic voting; do not demand recounts in very close elections; ignore exit polls that show more people voted for them than recorded in the elections they loose; have no interest in paper ballots etc etc.
If a party is against demanding better democratic practices in states they routinely lose. Sometimes loosing only narrowly.
And everyone needs them to win.
Then what would you call it besides a sort of insanity?
You have to understand that I’m not trying to defend the Democratic party here. It’s just important to be clear that both sides are not even close to being “equally out of their minds.”
Do I really need to go into details here, or is it not just self-evident based on the past 6 months?
First, I’m rather far far left. Both mainstream parties have traditionally been against things I hold dear. So things promoted by democrats can be poison to me.
But that is not the point.
When you have a party supporting the fascists, and a party that is less so; and that other party is against enabling, asking, paying token lip service: to democratic principles that every real democracy in the world holds dear, practices that would make the fascists loose.
That makes them a passive enabler.
There is nothing wrong with being a professional looser, and a corrupt mess, if that is what your voters want. But when it’s something that important and there is still no mass awareness of the situation, or even a glimmer of interest to do better.
That does make them equally bad. Much like a child abuse scenario where one parent beats up the children and another parent lets them.
Agreed we need much better voting protections and a complete overhaul of the system, with national standards the states should be required to meet. I think there is probably a more modern solution available that would satisfy the requirements you’ve laid out, but would be happy to start with paper ballots if that’s all we can muster. Eventually I’d like to see something like a 1 way hash that can be combined with some of a voter’s PII to publicly verify votes cast and results while protecting voter identities.
Most democracies use hand counted paper ballots. It works, and it’s fast enough, no need to improve it.
I don’t understand the American need to tinker with a good system.
That said, there is no way the majority of USA states will switch over to better counting systems. Some areas of the world will never be able to be truly democratic. The Americans have some weird system that works for their upper class, and the lower classes fully believe in it. This will not change in my lifetime
It sounds like you were politically active in TX around the same time I was, during GW era, based on prior comment. But this reads as if you are an expat now. Did you leave?
One of the reasons I think paper can be problematic is actually part of the same debacle that got W elected - the hanging chads in FL. After numerous recounts, it was in fact confirmed that Gore won, but by then fucking Fox News had declared the winner and the corrupt SCOTUS went along with it.
Those were really badly designed ballots. Look at France or the UK or Canada or Virginia etc for how they should be. No self respecting democracy should ever use a half mechanical design that fails like that.
What really made me angry later was that this was used to justify worse ways counting ballots. But my main issue was the shut down recounts. Busy was never properly elected, in my mind, and he made several problems for the USA that still have ramifications to this day.
His dad introduced modern computer voting. He used his contacts to form the first private voting companies we know today. And in my view his son was elected to Texas only because of that.
an expat now. Did you leave?
No, still in Texas. Unfortunately, during the gw era I was not interested in politics much. If I sound like an expat its because I am totally not on board with any of the major political movements
Ah yes, the now infamous Diebold voting machines. Manufactured by… drum roll… Dick Cheney‘a Halliburton, a company with every intention of getting us into forever wars for them to profit off of. Certainly nothing fishy about that, nor the countless reports of the machines glitching and flipping votes. This was the precursor to the refined technique which made news for allegedly swinging the vote for Biden and cost Fox all that lawsuit money, but if you ask me that’s just classic Republican projection. They know what they did to get Bush in office.
Glad you’re still here in the US, sorry it’s still tejas though. Such a mix of amazing and terrible things in that state. Politics is so frustrating there…it’s far more purple than Repugs would like to admit, but they gerrymander it like crazy and exploit people’s religious beliefs to keep the state turning blue seemingly perpetually out of reach. I was lucky to escape to one of the coasts in the aftermath of the pandemic, but not sure it makes much difference given the current socio-political landscape. Summers aren’t quite so brutal though so there’s that.
I do think there are better ways of doing ballots digitally, and yeah even old school methods like you described can work well. The states you mentioned use a type of scantron, very clear what you circle in but still subject to the same type of partisan nonsense as the hanging chads (eg, look they only filled in 90% of this circle, clearly we have to toss this vote.) speaking of tossing votes, that’s the other thing about paper ballots…they can literally just dump them before dropping off at the county election centers, and we had several cases of that in the ‘24 election. I think a permanent record that is a verifiable source of truth for election results is quite feasible, can still be anonymous, and provably non biased, but it has to be built that way and neither party can be trusted to do that.
I think if one follows the same practices as what is implemented in the UK and France and other democracies, then the issues we speak of with American ballot counting will simply go away.
I would not trust any improvements over the ballot counting methods perfected over 200 years ago. Scantrons, as mentioned, obfuscate witnesses trying to spot issues, and anything else is simply worse.
The modern crop of voting machines are not that much better than the Diebold machines, its hard to tell due to everyone being locked out of investigating them. Most people do not understand that these systems can have the owners throwing the elections without the employees being any wiser. We do not know this is happening, but with the exit polls and other hints going on, I would rate is as probable.
I think my issues with voting machines are influenced by me making similar systems myself. But still, I have no idea why people think they are a good idea. I do not think its a matter of education, or lack of awareness, because I tried for a few years to educate people, and have talked to others who tried too. I think it boils down to some taboo against calling out cheating in the American culture, to be honest. But that is just my idea
Texas is ok. Yes, it has a corrupt bad government steeped in endless corruption. But the big cities are just regular North American cities in both outlook and being cosmopolitan in nature (there are dozens of ethnic groups that have a huge impact on Houston, for example). And most of the rural population is allergic to politics. There is a warming trend that is going to cause mass migrations out of Texas in the next two generations, though.
These discussions always assume the elections are fair, which in many states is not true.
Perhaps instead of bickering about unimportant stuff ( at least to me they are not important), everyone griping should at least check to make sure their local elections at least meet United Nations specifications? Maybe they do, but depending where you are at, probably not.
I will never ever understand political discussions done by the majority of Americans.
Political discussions between strangers probably never will be productive. I am just frustrated and fed up with the stupid ideas I see floating around. People who don’t understand the country’s politics are influencing it with this “both sides” bullshit and it’s ruined our country because now the worst imaginable humans rule over us. Before it was a mix of people between true human garbage and genuinely well meaning people. It is idiotic to suggest everyone is fully on one side or the other, but that’s what these idiots are peddling. And it’s working unfortunately.
Eh, it’s been a long journey for me. Years ago I was active in the Democratic Party in Texas, later I was a keyboard warrior who wrote millions of words, none of which did any good.
Now I just want fair elections; again writing words, now in a very small community, that also does no good.
But I’m done with the partisan stuff, and think both sides are equally out of their minds.
Democracies need accurate ballot counting, most states fail this. The primaries in both parties and the general elections have been tampered with for decades in many states. This has totally changed the character and leadership of both parties over the decades.
This is not a falsifiable argument because the only way to prove the above is wrong is to not use the election machines run by private organizations. While at the same time exit polls and stats hint of extreme ballot stuffing by these very companies. It’s not rocket science.
But, most commentators and social media participants in USA politics don’t care or want to know.
The ballot manipulation will allow democrats to win the midterms by a landslide, and most likely have the presidency again in 2028, and people who want paper ballots will be rendered mute again by most. Then next cycle the republicans will win again!
It’s a very long game, with each iteration moving more wealth away from the majority. And the only way to fix it is with paper ballots counted in front of witnesses and unlimited recounts allowed. Even then, it will take a long time to fix
Look, I can get behind the general sentiment of your comment, but this is just wrong and it’s dangerous to keep pushing this lie. Ain’t nothing equal about it.
Democrats are out of their minds because they, as a party and a majority of participants: embrace electronic voting; do not demand recounts in very close elections; ignore exit polls that show more people voted for them than recorded in the elections they loose; have no interest in paper ballots etc etc.
If a party is against demanding better democratic practices in states they routinely lose. Sometimes loosing only narrowly.
And everyone needs them to win.
Then what would you call it besides a sort of insanity?
You have to understand that I’m not trying to defend the Democratic party here. It’s just important to be clear that both sides are not even close to being “equally out of their minds.”
Do I really need to go into details here, or is it not just self-evident based on the past 6 months?
First, I’m rather far far left. Both mainstream parties have traditionally been against things I hold dear. So things promoted by democrats can be poison to me.
But that is not the point.
When you have a party supporting the fascists, and a party that is less so; and that other party is against enabling, asking, paying token lip service: to democratic principles that every real democracy in the world holds dear, practices that would make the fascists loose.
That makes them a passive enabler.
There is nothing wrong with being a professional looser, and a corrupt mess, if that is what your voters want. But when it’s something that important and there is still no mass awareness of the situation, or even a glimmer of interest to do better.
That does make them equally bad. Much like a child abuse scenario where one parent beats up the children and another parent lets them.
And I think future historians will agree with me
Agreed we need much better voting protections and a complete overhaul of the system, with national standards the states should be required to meet. I think there is probably a more modern solution available that would satisfy the requirements you’ve laid out, but would be happy to start with paper ballots if that’s all we can muster. Eventually I’d like to see something like a 1 way hash that can be combined with some of a voter’s PII to publicly verify votes cast and results while protecting voter identities.
Most democracies use hand counted paper ballots. It works, and it’s fast enough, no need to improve it.
I don’t understand the American need to tinker with a good system.
That said, there is no way the majority of USA states will switch over to better counting systems. Some areas of the world will never be able to be truly democratic. The Americans have some weird system that works for their upper class, and the lower classes fully believe in it. This will not change in my lifetime
It sounds like you were politically active in TX around the same time I was, during GW era, based on prior comment. But this reads as if you are an expat now. Did you leave?
One of the reasons I think paper can be problematic is actually part of the same debacle that got W elected - the hanging chads in FL. After numerous recounts, it was in fact confirmed that Gore won, but by then fucking Fox News had declared the winner and the corrupt SCOTUS went along with it.
Those were really badly designed ballots. Look at France or the UK or Canada or Virginia etc for how they should be. No self respecting democracy should ever use a half mechanical design that fails like that.
What really made me angry later was that this was used to justify worse ways counting ballots. But my main issue was the shut down recounts. Busy was never properly elected, in my mind, and he made several problems for the USA that still have ramifications to this day.
His dad introduced modern computer voting. He used his contacts to form the first private voting companies we know today. And in my view his son was elected to Texas only because of that.
No, still in Texas. Unfortunately, during the gw era I was not interested in politics much. If I sound like an expat its because I am totally not on board with any of the major political movements
Edit: confused bushes
Ah yes, the now infamous Diebold voting machines. Manufactured by… drum roll… Dick Cheney‘a Halliburton, a company with every intention of getting us into forever wars for them to profit off of. Certainly nothing fishy about that, nor the countless reports of the machines glitching and flipping votes. This was the precursor to the refined technique which made news for allegedly swinging the vote for Biden and cost Fox all that lawsuit money, but if you ask me that’s just classic Republican projection. They know what they did to get Bush in office.
Glad you’re still here in the US, sorry it’s still tejas though. Such a mix of amazing and terrible things in that state. Politics is so frustrating there…it’s far more purple than Repugs would like to admit, but they gerrymander it like crazy and exploit people’s religious beliefs to keep the state turning blue seemingly perpetually out of reach. I was lucky to escape to one of the coasts in the aftermath of the pandemic, but not sure it makes much difference given the current socio-political landscape. Summers aren’t quite so brutal though so there’s that.
I do think there are better ways of doing ballots digitally, and yeah even old school methods like you described can work well. The states you mentioned use a type of scantron, very clear what you circle in but still subject to the same type of partisan nonsense as the hanging chads (eg, look they only filled in 90% of this circle, clearly we have to toss this vote.) speaking of tossing votes, that’s the other thing about paper ballots…they can literally just dump them before dropping off at the county election centers, and we had several cases of that in the ‘24 election. I think a permanent record that is a verifiable source of truth for election results is quite feasible, can still be anonymous, and provably non biased, but it has to be built that way and neither party can be trusted to do that.
I think if one follows the same practices as what is implemented in the UK and France and other democracies, then the issues we speak of with American ballot counting will simply go away.
I would not trust any improvements over the ballot counting methods perfected over 200 years ago. Scantrons, as mentioned, obfuscate witnesses trying to spot issues, and anything else is simply worse.
The modern crop of voting machines are not that much better than the Diebold machines, its hard to tell due to everyone being locked out of investigating them. Most people do not understand that these systems can have the owners throwing the elections without the employees being any wiser. We do not know this is happening, but with the exit polls and other hints going on, I would rate is as probable.
I think my issues with voting machines are influenced by me making similar systems myself. But still, I have no idea why people think they are a good idea. I do not think its a matter of education, or lack of awareness, because I tried for a few years to educate people, and have talked to others who tried too. I think it boils down to some taboo against calling out cheating in the American culture, to be honest. But that is just my idea
Texas is ok. Yes, it has a corrupt bad government steeped in endless corruption. But the big cities are just regular North American cities in both outlook and being cosmopolitan in nature (there are dozens of ethnic groups that have a huge impact on Houston, for example). And most of the rural population is allergic to politics. There is a warming trend that is going to cause mass migrations out of Texas in the next two generations, though.