Socialism has existed on a large scale for over a century. The USSR was the first, and now we have countries like Cuba, Vietnam, the PRC, etc, all economies where public ownership is the principle aspect of society. I’m not arguing from an “ideal,” I’m speaking purely about existing material reality. Using the PRC as an example, the large firms and key industries are overwhelmingly publicly owned:

The PRC did introduce Reform and Opening Up after struggles within the Cultural Revolution and the Gang of Four. These reforms didn’t change that public ownership is still the principle aspect of the economy, though. Private and cooperative ownership existed even under Mao, and economic growth was positive under Mao, just unstable, which the market reforms and introduction of special economic zones helped make stable and regular:

Pre-Reform and Opening Up Post-Reform and Opening Up

You didn’t bring any facts to the table or any analysis, you just said “no” then insulted me. It"s insulting and utterly insufficient for proving your claims.

To the contrary, socialism can only work at scale. Small-scale cooperation exists, yes, but isn’t really “socialism” as we understand it. A business cannot be “socialist,” socialism is a descriptor for an entire mode of production, not a quantum unit of an economy. Socialism is a mode of production where public ownership is the principle aspect, and regularly is proven to be superior to capitalism. The largest economy in the world by PPP is socialist, the PRC, and it’s a broad, diverse, multi-ethnic society of billions.

I think you’d do well to research more on socialism. “Human tribalism” is more of a response to immediate conditions within capitalism, a system dominated by private property. It isn’t some eternal genetic fault in humans, over time we have become increasingly interconnected and interdependent. Socialism is the natural evolution from that point now that capitalism has already centralized the broad majority of production, meaning coherent and deliberate planning of the economy is more feasible.

The worst is when they erase the immense famines in Tsarist Russia, China under the Kuomintang, etc, pretending that socialism caused the famines they experienced, when socialism gradually erased famine and hunger in both Russia and China.

People want to feel morally righteous for condemning socially percieved evil, even if it isn’t real. People also generally “license” themselves to believe in that which they believe materially benefits them.

Essentially, people’s capacity for changing their mind on something is less about the facts at hand and more about their readiness to accept an alternative viewpoint, which is driven by reaction to external circumstances.

Socialism or barbarism.

Socialism doesn’t “come with the same assholes,” socialist states have made dramatic and comprehensive strides for the working class while oppressing the capitalists.

Organizing, which is far more important, and it isn’t close. Voting is less than the bare minimum.

The system isn’t formed based on the wills of individuals, nor is there an inherent “nice” or “mean” quality to people. If we all decide we want to live in a perfect utopia, that still won’t take form, because that’s not how societal progression works. We live in capitalism, because capitalism emerged from preceding modes of production like feudalism. It wasn’t a choice people made, but an economic progression on the basis of private property and free-moving capital, which leads us to today where a tiny handful own the lion’s share of production.

Capitalism is riddled with contradictions, however, and these contradictions sharpen over time. We move onto socialism by organizing, where we can actually take control of production and run it along a common plan to suit the needs of the people.

Edit: figured it’s a good chance to plug my introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list, if what I said makes sense to you!

Glad to hear it!

The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.

I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.

Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time, yes. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.

I certainly can empathize with feelings of hopelessness, but I think you can absolutely still organize with others that most closely align to your beliefs and interests, and that organizing can help be a part of forming a new bedrock of optimism for yourself. I don’t think desiring the end of humanity is particularly useful for getting positive change.

Okay? Just because I’m not omnicidal I’m deserving of hatred?

No they didn’t, and yes, this is eco-fascism. Desiring omnicide of humanity for ecological reasons cedes all agency to the ruling class.

I’m pro-veganism and pro-socialism, so we can move onto a more ethical and environmentally conscious mode of production. Wanting humanity to go extinct is just ecofascism.

A better world is neither easy nor impossible, but merely difficult. Your pessimism takes this to be impossible and just cedes all agency to those who would perpetuate the worst excesses when you yourself acknowledge that countries like the PRC are making massive strides forward. It’s better to get organized and try to move towards socialism than it is to say the battle is already lost and we are doomed.

All states are authoritarian, what matters is which class is exerting its authority. The state is an instrument of class oppression, no more than that, and no less. In the US, the ruling class is the bourgeoisie. In the PRC, the ruling class is the proletariat. Since we can only move beyond concepts like authoritarianism once we abolish the state, and we can only abolish the state by eliminating class, which gives rise to it, we must support the working class being in charge.

Visit China, it will do you good to broaden your horizons. Talk to Chinese citizens, see what they think. China is a democratic country. Even the people of Taiwan want, above all, to maintain the status quo, not seeking full independence. All in all, you’re deeply ill-informed on what China is actually like, and are framing everything through an explicitly US-focused narrative. I recommend you focus on listening more than anything else if you do decide to visit.

You aren’t being realistic. Being pessimistic isn’t realism, again you attribute the problems of systems like capitalism and imperialism to humanity, but we know for a fact that tribal societies didn’t have such problems, and neither do socialist states as they exist today. You turn hatred of symptoms of capitalism and imperialism to humanity. It’s eco-fascism.

All of the problems you posited are consequences of capitalism and imperialism, the environmental damages included. You’re shifting the blame from genuine systemic failures to humanity genetically. It cedes all responsibility to move onto a better world, preferring to give up and adopt an eco-fascist position.

Basically Malthusian eco-fascism. Nobody should be forced to have kids, having kids is a huge commitment that should be reserved for those who want kids, but the “humans are the virus” crowd just play into reactionary hands and cede all control to those directly responsible for the worst excess.

Doing org work (albeit light for now, hoping to increase next year).