@theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.
Wait, what?? Zelenskyy took office after being democratically elected in 2019. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014. Your timeline does not check out there.
Zelensky took office on the promise of normalizing relations with Donbas and Russia, and then proceeded to do the opposite. Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Ukraine using its right to free association, to sign an agreement with the EU strengthening relations? Specifically including a further formalising of cooperation around Chernobyl (Euratom is independently a signatory), an issue entirely caused by Russia in the first place, who didn’t ever offer a similar level of cooperation? Is that what you’re referring too?
Nah, what I’m referring to is the violent coup by the far right that was openly supported by the west. Also, Russia never asked Ukraine to choose between economic association with Russia and Europe. It was western demand that Ukraine had to break economic ties with Russia. Maybe should get your facts straight so you can do more quality trolling.
@possiblylinux127@theunknownmuncher I know it might hurt your brain but it is helpful to fully understand an issue to understand the other sides perspectives.
Your perfective only make sense if we assume that Putin is retarded(what he propably is) because Ukraine couldn’t join NATO(Crimea) and now Finland is at NATO because that war, and Putin said that he don’t care that Finland is in NATO, I can only came to the conclusion that he didn’t care about NATO in Russia border, he just wanted to genocide ukranians, or die as the one who brought back Russia empire
@theunknownmuncher Your timeline doesn’t go back far enough and I notice you completely ignored the bit about Eastern expansion of NATO and what the United States promised Russia.
Seems to me that you’re the one justifying genocide of people of Donbas by the fascists that took power in a violent coup backed by the west. Even western media reported on the far right problem in Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing in Donbas before the war started.
@yogthos@theunknownmuncher Well we are two weeks away from an Presidential election here in the US, going to be interesting to see where that goes. If Kamaltoe, er, Kamala gets it then probably we won’t even be able to discuss it anymore.
My expectation is that Ukraine is going to be dumped after the election regardless of who wins. The whole gig has run its course at this point, and there’s a new war with Iran being drummed up already.
@yogthos Trumps past record suggests not. The real question is what the outcome will be. I do expect if he is elected, we will see negotiated outcomes.
I think the events on the ground will be what dictates things ultimately. Russia is wining the war, and even western media is starting to grudgingly admit it. The west is basically tapped out in terms of material support, and Ukraine is running out of manpower to keep the war going. Eventually, it’s either gonna be NATO boots on the ground or Russia dictating terms. And the former almost certainly means a nuclear holocaust.
@theunknownmuncher I don’t justify genocide, I acknowledge ALL conflicts involve at least two sides, and to punish only one of those sides is to take part in said genocide rather than oppose it.
Okay then, so describe the 2 sides and the punishments they deserved during the Nazi Germany invasion of Poland/Europe and the holocaust. I hate to bring Nazis into it as an argument, but you did say “ALL” and it easily shows how ridiculous that take is.
Nazi germany came into being a thing because post great war was massively hard on germans in large part to the treaty of versailles completely crippling germany’s economy.
ofc there were other factors like the massive propaganda machine, Germany was effectively reduced to a slave state dealt a massive blow to the pride of the german populace which was fairly easy to turn young men militant alone, even disregarding the disastrous effects to the German economy.
@drwankingstein@theunknownmuncher That being the case why did Rockefeller fund BOTH sides of the conflict? It’s true it had bad effects on the economy but it wasn’t the only thing that had bad effects on the economy, you need to go back about 800 years to get to the roots of that.
It’s funny that the mere suggestion someone learn history gets downvotes. Oh I don’t want to do that. It takes so much effort. Much easier just to hate because MSNBC tells me to.
@theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.
Wait, what?? Zelenskyy took office after being democratically elected in 2019. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014. Your timeline does not check out there.
Zelensky took office on the promise of normalizing relations with Donbas and Russia, and then proceeded to do the opposite. Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Ukraine using its right to free association, to sign an agreement with the EU strengthening relations? Specifically including a further formalising of cooperation around Chernobyl (Euratom is independently a signatory), an issue entirely caused by Russia in the first place, who didn’t ever offer a similar level of cooperation? Is that what you’re referring too?
Nah, what I’m referring to is the violent coup by the far right that was openly supported by the west. Also, Russia never asked Ukraine to choose between economic association with Russia and Europe. It was western demand that Ukraine had to break economic ties with Russia. Maybe should get your facts straight so you can do more quality trolling.
Ah, cool. You’re one of those.
Yeah, I’m one of those people who are actually informed on the subject.
Its almost as if it is coming right out of the Russian media
@possiblylinux127 @theunknownmuncher I know it might hurt your brain but it is helpful to fully understand an issue to understand the other sides perspectives.
How dare you suggest critical thinking?!
Your perfective only make sense if we assume that Putin is retarded(what he propably is) because Ukraine couldn’t join NATO(Crimea) and now Finland is at NATO because that war, and Putin said that he don’t care that Finland is in NATO, I can only came to the conclusion that he didn’t care about NATO in Russia border, he just wanted to genocide ukranians, or die as the one who brought back Russia empire
@theunknownmuncher Your timeline doesn’t go back far enough and I notice you completely ignored the bit about Eastern expansion of NATO and what the United States promised Russia.
Your justification of genocide is both ludicrous and gross.
Seems to me that you’re the one justifying genocide of people of Donbas by the fascists that took power in a violent coup backed by the west. Even western media reported on the far right problem in Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing in Donbas before the war started.
@yogthos @theunknownmuncher Well we are two weeks away from an Presidential election here in the US, going to be interesting to see where that goes. If Kamaltoe, er, Kamala gets it then probably we won’t even be able to discuss it anymore.
My expectation is that Ukraine is going to be dumped after the election regardless of who wins. The whole gig has run its course at this point, and there’s a new war with Iran being drummed up already.
@yogthos Trumps past record suggests not. The real question is what the outcome will be. I do expect if he is elected, we will see negotiated outcomes.
I think the events on the ground will be what dictates things ultimately. Russia is wining the war, and even western media is starting to grudgingly admit it. The west is basically tapped out in terms of material support, and Ukraine is running out of manpower to keep the war going. Eventually, it’s either gonna be NATO boots on the ground or Russia dictating terms. And the former almost certainly means a nuclear holocaust.
@theunknownmuncher I don’t justify genocide, I acknowledge ALL conflicts involve at least two sides, and to punish only one of those sides is to take part in said genocide rather than oppose it.
Okay then, so describe the 2 sides and the punishments they deserved during the Nazi Germany invasion of Poland/Europe and the holocaust. I hate to bring Nazis into it as an argument, but you did say “ALL” and it easily shows how ridiculous that take is.
Nazi germany came into being a thing because post great war was massively hard on germans in large part to the treaty of versailles completely crippling germany’s economy.
ofc there were other factors like the massive propaganda machine, Germany was effectively reduced to a slave state dealt a massive blow to the pride of the german populace which was fairly easy to turn young men militant alone, even disregarding the disastrous effects to the German economy.
@drwankingstein @theunknownmuncher That being the case why did Rockefeller fund BOTH sides of the conflict? It’s true it had bad effects on the economy but it wasn’t the only thing that had bad effects on the economy, you need to go back about 800 years to get to the roots of that.
Removed by mod
Big yikes!!!
It’s funny that the mere suggestion someone learn history gets downvotes. Oh I don’t want to do that. It takes so much effort. Much easier just to hate because MSNBC tells me to.
So why did Russiactaje Crimera? Saying this wouldn’t have happened is BS. Russia I expected a quick and decisive victory.