Title of the (concerning) thread on their community forum, not voluntary clickbait. Came across the thread thanks to a toot by @Khrys@mamot.fr (French speaking)
The gist of the issue raised by OP is that framework sponsors and promotes projects lead by known toxic and racists people (DHH among them).
I agree with the point made by the OP :
The “big tent” argument works fine if everyone plays by some basic civil rules of understanding. Stuff like code of conducts, moderation, anti-racism, surely those things we agree on? A big tent won’t work if you let in people that want to exterminate the others.
I’m disappointed in framework’s answer so far
So should we all stop using Lemmy because it was made by a Tankie?
No we use Lemmy and make fun of the Tankies as revenge
Certainly a tough question. Use Lemmy, okay, but would you send financial contributions to said Tankie? I wouldn’t, and I would judge someone that did. I don’t think anyone can be expected to evaluate the moral virtues of the developer for every technology they use. That’s a supply chain nightmare. But, given the small number of people we directly sponsor, maybe then it’s appropriate to have some standards?
As a non-US citizen, I actually consider /any/ American company that has not moved to be complicit in fascism. At the same time, I havn’t completely stopped patronizing American companies, so I’m not living up to my own standard. I suspect everyone is a little hypocritical.
It’s literally impossible to use the internet (or even computers?) without patronizing American companies, at least indirectly.
Yeah, or just playing games. Maybe if you only buy European made games from GOG exclusively?
It’s certainly not feasible for every company to leave America, but I wouldn’t argue with a boycott of American goods and services on general - and I’m saying this as an American citizen who’s not exactly thrilled about this mess, either.
This is an absolutely insane position to take.
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There, FTFY.
Using Lemmy isn’t giving that tankie money.
It is is you support lemmy’s development which for a foss platform its expected users do
But not required. If I do not morally support the developer I can instead choose to financially support individual instances, or other projects like Piefed or mbin.
My point here is that comparing this situation to using Lemmy is a bad comparison. Supporting Framework is pretty much exclusively via financial support, the same is not true for Lemmy.
Doesn’t seem clear cut at all after reading the whole thread. You support one thing who’s creator has questionable views but not the other. The main difference seems to be that you like one and not the other.
What doesn’t seem clear-cut? My only point here was that using Lemmy does not directly fund the creator of it.
You’re making assumptions about me. I use Piefed, not Lemmy. I also do not believe that this situation is enough for me to not support Framework. All I’m saying here is that supporting Framework is for the most part direct financial support, while one can easily support the Lemmy as a whole, without providing financial support to the creator with questionable views.
I don’t care to debate about whether this makes supporting Lemmy better or worse than supporting Framework. I only on what I feel is an oversight in the comparison made by the comment I originally replied to.
The main difference is that fascism and racism are fundamentally destructive ideologies/traits, while tankie is just a derogatory term for folks on the far left used by people that think extreme left and extreme right are the same kind if evil. It’s a display of arrogant ignorance, congratulations.
Many would argue tankies live by an ideology with a comparable body count to fascism.
That’s all very vague. Be more explicit. Many argue many things.
What is the ideology you’re hinting at? Communism? What is the body count of communism? Where do you think you’ve got that that narrative from?
To round out the picture, and because body count seems so decisive, we should include capitalism, right — as fascism, many argue, is a neccessary consequence of imperial capitalism protecting itself in crisis and it’s our current economic ideology and therefore an ongoing, systematic phenomenon?
What’s the body count of capitalism?
Many would argue we currently live by an ideology with a body count of double digit millions of excess deaths annually, through poverty & hunger, healthcare inequality, workplace deaths & diseases, environmental & climate deaths, structural violence, and of course war & imperial violence.
Why would I account for capitalism when my whole point is i don’t care what people’s opinions are?
Im talking about Tankie ideology so communism yes. But again, my point is I don’t care so to try to pit communism vs capitalism to gotcha me doesn’t even make sense.
Communism has a massive body count yes.
This form of verbal maneuvering that you display is falling from grace.
Using lemmy increases its popularity which in turn leads to more donations or other benefits.
Thats a valid point, but I still feel its a less direct form of support, which was my point. I dont feel that it is the same as directly financially supporting a project you morally disagree with.
It’s a significant factor for sure. However, this year Reddit has accelerated its enshittification since the API schism and is far too risky to continue use anyway. The only viable alternative to Lemmy that I see is Mastodon and I never really got into the Twitter format.
A naive answer:
Replace “Lemmy” with a “Nazi manufactured gun”.
A less naive answer:
Consider various meanings “use” takes in your question and decide accordingly.
If the far right would stop using Lemmy that would be fantastic news. (inb4 hurr durr echo chamber!!!11!)
Not the same but sure. Go ahead. There’s piefed.social too!
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Tankies, afaik, are just delusional. Do they support murder of non-whites?
And uh…the fact that defederating the tankies is a regular topic of conversation here is 100000000x better than the big tent response.
Tankies widely support the destruction of the Ukrainians as a people and culture. One of the definitions of genocide. Are you going to stop using every software written, or partly written, by a tankie?
Can you point me to that (must be lemmy dev or moderator appointed by a lemmy dev to be comparable)? All over seen are posts on power tripping where people get banned because they say things like “Russia started it” or “Tiananmen lol, amirite”. I’ve not seen anything to the extent you’re describing and would be interested in seeing it.
And uh, the problem isn’t the use of software. Nothing in this thread is about the use of software.
This is a huge part of Putin’s current war; a war tankies widely support. You need sources for these things?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
If you’re going to hold lemmy to the same standard we are holding lemmy to in this thread, absolutely yes. Did you not see the detailed links provided by oop?
And uh …don’t the tankies not believe in those allegations? Isn’t that their whole thing, that western media is lying about it? Ie delusional like I said.
Of course they don’t believe the piles of evidence. The point is they support the genocide either way. If we are changing the standard to purely what delusional people believe, not what they actually support, then there is a ton of people on the right we should stop bitching about, as they don’t believe their policies are harmful either…
So, back to the original question, are you going to use a software written, or just partly written, by tankies? Or is it possible that one can use a software written by people who have differing political opinions from you?
I already answered that: your question is trying to move the goalposts away from what framework is doing.
I think the rest of your response feels wrong in a fundamental way but I haven’t thought through why yet.
Either that or a pair of opinions you hold conflict with each-other.
Internal consistency is highly valued. As long as all opinions are treated with the same standards, then you have a nice steady base for your views and how you interact with the world.
Not the same thing. Equating the far left and the far right is nonsensical, as horseshoe theory isn’t a real thing. Giving room for such thought only strengthens extreme right positions and is exclusively used to either distract from or downplay far right commentary or elevate liberal/centrist thought as the only acceptable path. It’s interestingly never used by people from the far left themselves.
Your’s either an ignorant take or one with an agenda, which is it?