Luz shares her apartment with her husband, also from Mexico and also undocumented. They met in America. He works in a bar. They have a young daughter who was born in America and is therefore a US citizen.
Ok. I’m not from the US and thought this was obvious. Is anyone in favor of undocumented or illegal immigrants? I thought the actual problem was deportations with no trials. It seems obvious no one should support illegal immigration. I think instead you should support allowing more people to inmigrate
Yes actually, i dont really give a crap who comes to our country as long as they aren’t violent (which is a moot point since most violent crime is perpetrated by citizens of said country). In the U.S. it’s extra ironic we dont want immigrants since we literally showed up here as immigrants and took the land from the Native Americans. We are all descendents of immigrants in this country.
Now, obviously, I cant get what I want, so I’d settle for reasonable immigration laws. But last time I checked getting citizenship in the U.S. can take as long as 20 years. In this administration, im sure its even harder to get citizenship if you aren’t a rich white racist fuckhead.
The problem is that system changes arbitrarily from one administration to the next, and people who thought they were protected suddenly find themselves unprotected, and then some clown comes along, and just starts throwing out people who thought they were safe for YEARS.
Even Ronald Reagan was able to come up with a fairly reasonable program to deal with the issue at the time, but the current MAGA Nazis literally take pleasure in oppressing people, and undocumented people are easy, low hanging fruit.
While you’re right, there’s still a big difference from legal immigrants who were granted temporary residence and illegal immigrants. The former were allowed into the country for a limited duration of time, but the latter weren’t allowed in the first place.
I agree with you that the country’s migration system needs an overhaul, over being impatient or dissatisfied with the current system is not an excuse to cross into the country illegally.
The process gets longer or shorter depending on the administration, but the general immigration rules have been more less the same. The only thing that I can think of that can apply to what you’re saying is the temporary protection program, but that’s a whole different subject.
There have been all sorts of asylum programs, DACA, pathways to citizenship, etc. Trump recently cancelled a program that was protecting 200,000 people from countries like Venezuela. Many people were recruited into the military with the false promise that serving in the military would protect them. Many, many people have legitimately thought they were here under the protection of one program or another, only to have it end, and replaced by a new one.
Now, even people with Green Cards, or even CITIZENSHIP, are being scrutinized. Even Birthright Citizenship is being questioned. Rubio today announced that they will remove passports of AMERICAN citizens who criticize the administration. It seems even actual American citizens aren’t even safe.
Just because the Conservative Propaganda Machine doesn’t tell you about it, and you are too ignorant to look into it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Stop thinking like a MAGA Nazi Traitor, and start thinking like an American.
There have been all sorts of asylum programs, DACA, pathways to citizenship, etc. Trump recently cancelled a program that was protecting 200,000 people from countries like Venezuela. Many people were recruited into the military with the false promise that serving in the military would protect them. Many, many people have legitimately thought they were here under the protection of one program or another, only to have it end, and replaced by a new one.
Also Afghans who previously were fighting off the Taliban alongside US troops, had to get out and try getting asylum, but now seen as unwanted, to be cuffed by ICE and thrown back to Kabul to be possibly imprisoned or executed.
Yeah. They have 14 million undocumented immigrants currently. Like 4% of the population. A country like USA can sort of cope with that because they don’t have a heavy social security system like we tend to in Europe, but 4% is still quite a lot.
No, illegal not so much - but the system is fucking broken and it leaves a lot of situations ambiguous. Also the current regime is racial profiling so it doesn’t even matter if you’re a citizen.
I can simultaneously support a better immigration process and system - and also say that illegality is illegality - BUT ALSO say that people should be treated like people and given the circumstances be afforded certain rights and procedures that are civil.
But we’re getting none of that and we need billionaires and corporations and current leadership to fear us.
It ia more nuanced than that. What makes immigration “illegal” is incredibly arbitrary and inconsistent as a matter of both practice AND law in the USA. Moreover, there are many who believe, as I do, that people have a right to try making a home wherever they are. Where immigration is a problem, it isn’t an immigration problem but rather a collapse of existing broken aspects of the society–the immigration pressure just brings these failings to light.
Complete nonsense. Countries have borders and if you cross into another country without the proper legal channels then you’re an illegal immigrant. It’s simple as that. Trying to circumnavigate immigration laws is very much a problem.
What constitutes a legal channel is not “simple” and you’re either being disingenuous or are wildly ignorant of the practical reality of immigration. Regardless, it also is totally reasonable to believe that “circumnavigating immigration laws” is very much a non-issue and by and large it is totally unimportant whether an immigrant is documented or not, as far as the state is concerned–if anything, the state, such that it is a unitary entity with its own interests, benefits from undocumented immigrants as they pay into the system and minimally draw out of it (this is also a bad thing, imo, but I suspect we disagree on why).
It doesn’t matter whether the immigration system is simple or convulsed. It is still the immigration system of the country, and you have to respect it. Feeling dissatisfied or impatient with it is not a valid excuse to actually smuggle yourself into the country illegally. With the sole exception of genuine asylum seekers, nobody has a moral argument, let alone, a legal one to be in any country illegally. Nobody is entitled to being an immigrant to any country. Immigration is a privilege, always has been and always will be, and you have to respect the customs of the country you want to immigrate to. If they’re reviewing your case then you have to be patient, and if they rejected you then you have to accept that decision.
Also, it’s completely asinine to try passing off illegal immigration as some sort of non issue. That’s just an out of touch take. It is an absolutely MASSIVE issue. Here’s just a few ways where it’s a problem:
Security: You have random people inside the country that are not known, tracked, and vetted. That’s a major national security threat as it leaves your society vulnerable to smugglers, foreign adversaries’ agents, human traffickers, terrorists, and a whole host of other criminals that could wander in and out of the country with no supervision, approval or consequence.
Legal: Countries have laws for a reason, they’re there to reflect the public interest and will. Having people blatantly violate them is a serious challenge to the country’s institutions. If these institutions, like immigration, border, and customs agencies can’t enforce the laws they’re tasked to enforce, then their authority and legitimacy have been undermined. If you read any history book, you would know that a country with weak institutions that cannot carry out their basic duties, like enforcing the laws they were created to enforce, is a country that’s headed to towards instability and collapse because it is no longer able to govern properly. The consequences of illegal immigrants breaking immigration laws are very serious.
Economic: While illegal immigrants technically do contribute more in taxes than they take out, I would argue that it’s a bad thing because their undocumented status makes them vulnerable to exploitation by employers who pay low wages and offer poor conditions, thus creating a shadow labor market that undercuts American workers and erodes labor standards. This two tiered system isn’t just unjust, it incentivizes lawbreaking and devalues citizenship. Prosecuting employers alone won’t fix it, and simply granting undocumented immigrants full rights sidesteps the core issue which is that we’re normalizing illegal entry and undermining the rule of law.
Moral: Let’s zoom out of the technical aspects and think about morals. Our immigration system, while flawed, is still functional. There are millions of people all around the world from all backgrounds, who are waiting their turn to get into the country legally. Why should these people get shafted in favor of people who chose to cut in line? How is that fair? By illegally migrating, not only have they disrespected this country, but they also insulted all these people who are trying into the country legally as well as all legal immigrants in the country who sacrificed so much to be here. There’s no good argument for illegal immigration, the most common excuse that I hear is that these people come from a place of hardship and they just want a better life, but that’s not good enough. If empathy is the standard, it should be extended first to those who respect the process, not those who disregard it.
All these points are just common sense. It’s absolutely crazy that I even have to argue why basic immigration laws are necessary. I understand Lemmy is off the rails politically, but even then, has the state of our education system degraded so much that people genuinely cannot comprehend the importance of immigration laws? Seeing people unironically defend open borders without understand why that wouldn’t work makes me feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
This is such a Lemmy take. Even a child can comprehend why borders are a necessity. The world is an unequal place that’s filled with scarcity and malice. In order to protect your society’s social coherency, economic prosperity, and values, you have to enforce borders
The EU did stop to enforce internal borders. It lower inequality within the EU and made the rich members better off, by providign cheaper workers. There is a reason Brexit causes so many problems for the UK.
That is not to say that opening all borders overnight would not cause problems. It clearly would, but in the end the world would be a better place.
Even you understand you’re being disingenuous with this one. The EU very much enforces it’s external borders, and freedom of movement is exclusively granted to other member states. The EU is after all a political union between very similar countries culturally, historically, legally, and economically. The member states democratically consented to remove barriers (not borders) to allow for freedom of movement among each other.
It clearly would, but in the end the world would be a better place.
If this was the case then this would’ve already happened, but it didn’t and it won’t for a reason. The concept of borders isn’t a product of some ideology, it’s a product of circumstance that was created out of necessity. Sure, there are plenty of modern borders that are nonsensical, but these countries all serve to show case why more proper borders are necessary as all the country with nonsensical borders are all very unstable and plagued with conflict.
I noticed over the years that many, if not all, of these collapse enthusiasts are terminally online larpers confined to echo chambers. They’re so detached from reality that they unironically think that the moment society collapses it’ll be replaced with whatever ideology they subscribe to, and this will cause all their personal problems to go away. They never seem to consider any other possibility.
Ok. I’m not from the US and thought this was obvious. Is anyone in favor of undocumented or illegal immigrants? I thought the actual problem was deportations with no trials. It seems obvious no one should support illegal immigration. I think instead you should support allowing more people to inmigrate
Yes actually, i dont really give a crap who comes to our country as long as they aren’t violent (which is a moot point since most violent crime is perpetrated by citizens of said country). In the U.S. it’s extra ironic we dont want immigrants since we literally showed up here as immigrants and took the land from the Native Americans. We are all descendents of immigrants in this country.
Now, obviously, I cant get what I want, so I’d settle for reasonable immigration laws. But last time I checked getting citizenship in the U.S. can take as long as 20 years. In this administration, im sure its even harder to get citizenship if you aren’t a rich white racist fuckhead.
The problem is that system changes arbitrarily from one administration to the next, and people who thought they were protected suddenly find themselves unprotected, and then some clown comes along, and just starts throwing out people who thought they were safe for YEARS.
Even Ronald Reagan was able to come up with a fairly reasonable program to deal with the issue at the time, but the current MAGA Nazis literally take pleasure in oppressing people, and undocumented people are easy, low hanging fruit.
While you’re right, there’s still a big difference from legal immigrants who were granted temporary residence and illegal immigrants. The former were allowed into the country for a limited duration of time, but the latter weren’t allowed in the first place.
There’s people that qualified for a process, then that process was suspended/ eligibility is changed etc etc etc.
“Illegal immigrants” basically all start as legal migrants working through the paperwork.
I agree with you that the country’s migration system needs an overhaul, over being impatient or dissatisfied with the current system is not an excuse to cross into the country illegally.
But you can’t tell if you will be here illegally, because the rules are obtuse or change.
The process gets longer or shorter depending on the administration, but the general immigration rules have been more less the same. The only thing that I can think of that can apply to what you’re saying is the temporary protection program, but that’s a whole different subject.
I see you took your idiot pills this morning.
What a riveting argument
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There have been all sorts of asylum programs, DACA, pathways to citizenship, etc. Trump recently cancelled a program that was protecting 200,000 people from countries like Venezuela. Many people were recruited into the military with the false promise that serving in the military would protect them. Many, many people have legitimately thought they were here under the protection of one program or another, only to have it end, and replaced by a new one.
Now, even people with Green Cards, or even CITIZENSHIP, are being scrutinized. Even Birthright Citizenship is being questioned. Rubio today announced that they will remove passports of AMERICAN citizens who criticize the administration. It seems even actual American citizens aren’t even safe.
Just because the Conservative Propaganda Machine doesn’t tell you about it, and you are too ignorant to look into it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Stop thinking like a MAGA Nazi Traitor, and start thinking like an American.
Also Afghans who previously were fighting off the Taliban alongside US troops, had to get out and try getting asylum, but now seen as unwanted, to be cuffed by ICE and thrown back to Kabul to be possibly imprisoned or executed.
Removed by mod
Yeah. They have 14 million undocumented immigrants currently. Like 4% of the population. A country like USA can sort of cope with that because they don’t have a heavy social security system like we tend to in Europe, but 4% is still quite a lot.
I’ll take the bait.
No, illegal not so much - but the system is fucking broken and it leaves a lot of situations ambiguous. Also the current regime is racial profiling so it doesn’t even matter if you’re a citizen.
I can simultaneously support a better immigration process and system - and also say that illegality is illegality - BUT ALSO say that people should be treated like people and given the circumstances be afforded certain rights and procedures that are civil.
But we’re getting none of that and we need billionaires and corporations and current leadership to fear us.
Spot on
There is no bait. 100% agree
It ia more nuanced than that. What makes immigration “illegal” is incredibly arbitrary and inconsistent as a matter of both practice AND law in the USA. Moreover, there are many who believe, as I do, that people have a right to try making a home wherever they are. Where immigration is a problem, it isn’t an immigration problem but rather a collapse of existing broken aspects of the society–the immigration pressure just brings these failings to light.
Complete nonsense. Countries have borders and if you cross into another country without the proper legal channels then you’re an illegal immigrant. It’s simple as that. Trying to circumnavigate immigration laws is very much a problem.
What constitutes a legal channel is not “simple” and you’re either being disingenuous or are wildly ignorant of the practical reality of immigration. Regardless, it also is totally reasonable to believe that “circumnavigating immigration laws” is very much a non-issue and by and large it is totally unimportant whether an immigrant is documented or not, as far as the state is concerned–if anything, the state, such that it is a unitary entity with its own interests, benefits from undocumented immigrants as they pay into the system and minimally draw out of it (this is also a bad thing, imo, but I suspect we disagree on why).
It doesn’t matter whether the immigration system is simple or convulsed. It is still the immigration system of the country, and you have to respect it. Feeling dissatisfied or impatient with it is not a valid excuse to actually smuggle yourself into the country illegally. With the sole exception of genuine asylum seekers, nobody has a moral argument, let alone, a legal one to be in any country illegally. Nobody is entitled to being an immigrant to any country. Immigration is a privilege, always has been and always will be, and you have to respect the customs of the country you want to immigrate to. If they’re reviewing your case then you have to be patient, and if they rejected you then you have to accept that decision.
Also, it’s completely asinine to try passing off illegal immigration as some sort of non issue. That’s just an out of touch take. It is an absolutely MASSIVE issue. Here’s just a few ways where it’s a problem:
Security: You have random people inside the country that are not known, tracked, and vetted. That’s a major national security threat as it leaves your society vulnerable to smugglers, foreign adversaries’ agents, human traffickers, terrorists, and a whole host of other criminals that could wander in and out of the country with no supervision, approval or consequence.
Legal: Countries have laws for a reason, they’re there to reflect the public interest and will. Having people blatantly violate them is a serious challenge to the country’s institutions. If these institutions, like immigration, border, and customs agencies can’t enforce the laws they’re tasked to enforce, then their authority and legitimacy have been undermined. If you read any history book, you would know that a country with weak institutions that cannot carry out their basic duties, like enforcing the laws they were created to enforce, is a country that’s headed to towards instability and collapse because it is no longer able to govern properly. The consequences of illegal immigrants breaking immigration laws are very serious.
Economic: While illegal immigrants technically do contribute more in taxes than they take out, I would argue that it’s a bad thing because their undocumented status makes them vulnerable to exploitation by employers who pay low wages and offer poor conditions, thus creating a shadow labor market that undercuts American workers and erodes labor standards. This two tiered system isn’t just unjust, it incentivizes lawbreaking and devalues citizenship. Prosecuting employers alone won’t fix it, and simply granting undocumented immigrants full rights sidesteps the core issue which is that we’re normalizing illegal entry and undermining the rule of law.
Moral: Let’s zoom out of the technical aspects and think about morals. Our immigration system, while flawed, is still functional. There are millions of people all around the world from all backgrounds, who are waiting their turn to get into the country legally. Why should these people get shafted in favor of people who chose to cut in line? How is that fair? By illegally migrating, not only have they disrespected this country, but they also insulted all these people who are trying into the country legally as well as all legal immigrants in the country who sacrificed so much to be here. There’s no good argument for illegal immigration, the most common excuse that I hear is that these people come from a place of hardship and they just want a better life, but that’s not good enough. If empathy is the standard, it should be extended first to those who respect the process, not those who disregard it.
All these points are just common sense. It’s absolutely crazy that I even have to argue why basic immigration laws are necessary. I understand Lemmy is off the rails politically, but even then, has the state of our education system degraded so much that people genuinely cannot comprehend the importance of immigration laws? Seeing people unironically defend open borders without understand why that wouldn’t work makes me feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
deleted by creator
You know, you could be both against Trump and his moronic politics AND support reasonable immigration laws. Shocking, I know.
deleted by creator
I’m in favor of fuck all borders.
This is such a Lemmy take. Even a child can comprehend why borders are a necessity. The world is an unequal place that’s filled with scarcity and malice. In order to protect your society’s social coherency, economic prosperity, and values, you have to enforce borders
The EU did stop to enforce internal borders. It lower inequality within the EU and made the rich members better off, by providign cheaper workers. There is a reason Brexit causes so many problems for the UK.
That is not to say that opening all borders overnight would not cause problems. It clearly would, but in the end the world would be a better place.
Even you understand you’re being disingenuous with this one. The EU very much enforces it’s external borders, and freedom of movement is exclusively granted to other member states. The EU is after all a political union between very similar countries culturally, historically, legally, and economically. The member states democratically consented to remove barriers (not borders) to allow for freedom of movement among each other.
If this was the case then this would’ve already happened, but it didn’t and it won’t for a reason. The concept of borders isn’t a product of some ideology, it’s a product of circumstance that was created out of necessity. Sure, there are plenty of modern borders that are nonsensical, but these countries all serve to show case why more proper borders are necessary as all the country with nonsensical borders are all very unstable and plagued with conflict.
A lot of people in Lemmy want everything to burn down. They seem to think that bringing everything down to their level means victory.
I noticed over the years that many, if not all, of these collapse enthusiasts are terminally online larpers confined to echo chambers. They’re so detached from reality that they unironically think that the moment society collapses it’ll be replaced with whatever ideology they subscribe to, and this will cause all their personal problems to go away. They never seem to consider any other possibility.
Apparently that “innocent until proven guilty” was also a lie.
I need to stop reading. The fascists can’t allow rights that they can’t even read. The Constitution should have been written below a 6th grade level…
I had someone tell me “well. Innocent until proven guilty only applies for citizens. So proving that is on you”
I had someone say that too. That person is a former cop. But the 14th amendment very intentionally says “person”, not “citizen”.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv