To be fair to liberals, liberalism is also a system to take care of your neighbors.
Liberalism is basically capitalism with patches. Public option health care, government contractors, food stamps, tuition assistance, bus vouchers, child tax credits.
Socialism is a capitalism replacement. Universal health care, government organizations, free government grocery stores, free education, free public transportation, free day care.
Both groups on the left care about their neighbors.
Nothing you listed there is liberalism. Those are all things liberals fought tooth and nail against. They were forced on liberals who decided it was better to allow them to exist because otherwise we would tear down capitalism which is what Liberals are actually about.
It really doesn’t. That’s just something Americans liberals try to sell so people they don’t realize how liberals are always working against their interests.
My comment was absolutely applied to American politics.
I mean you aren’t wrong when it comes to American liberal politicians. That’s just the differences between liberalism and socialism in theory, the actual differences in practice is another story.
In short? Capitalists. Liberals are capitalists. The birth of liberalism goes hand in hand with the birth of capitalism. The liberal revolutions were capitalist revolutions. Everything stems from that inescapable fact of history. It’s the one aspect of liberals that dominates everything about them and colors every single decision they make. Everything else is just window dressing that can be thrown away at their leisure. If you want to understand liberals you have to understand that.
So, you’re a communist is what you’re saying. Name one communist country in the history of the world that has lasted longer than 10 years. You introduce greeds, it’s impossible.
You should know that you are making a very ideologically based argument, since as far as anyone can tell the self-labelled communist countries through history were degraded into authoritarian dictatorships immediately, and so mislabeled. Cuba is called communist, and while they too slid immediately into authoritarianism, they call themselves socialist.
You seem to be using the word in a colloquial rather than an academic way.
In addition, consider the massive economic war of the last 150 years, exemplified by the CIA-backed murder of a million or so people in Indonesia, to stamp out so-called communism. Pretty tough to get anything going, between the pressures of violence and lies.
Liberalism isn’t an economic system.
It’s a political & moral philosophy from the Enlightenment that holds governments exist for the people & authority is legitimate only when it protects inalienable/fundamental/inherent rights & liberties of individuals.
The people have an inherent right to obtain a government with legitimate authority, and when their government lacks or loses legitimacy, the people have a right & duty replace or change that government until it obtains legitimacy.
Liberal governments can & do include some with social market economies (eg, social democracies in Europe).
But I mean an EL5 version is that liberals and socialists on the left both care about their neighbors. The disagreement is just how much of life should be handled by markets vs public/collective systems.
Which liberalism lacks an essential position on, because it’s not an economic philosophy.
Liberalism is essentially the position that individual human rights & liberties are fundamental.
It can even combine with socialism.
Whatever disagreements you claim these philosophies have may be between particular variants you’re not specifying rather than their most general forms.
Economically, modern liberalism accepts a role for government to protect against market failures, protect competition and prevent corporate monopolies, and supports labor rights.[2] Its fiscal policy supports sufficient funding for a social safety net, while simultaneously promoting income-proportional tax reform policies to reduce deficits. It calls for active government involvement in other social and economic matters such as reducing economic inequality, expanding access to education and healthcare, and protection of the shared natural environment.[3]
Right, and modern US liberalism isn’t general liberalism.
Plus, those distinctly modern elements absent from general liberalism of active non-market interventions by the government to protect the market from failure, provide a safety net, provide access to education & healthcare, provide public services to reduce inequality, protect the environment, etc, are social departures from capitalism, are they not?
That position aligns better with social democracy
a social, economic, and political philosophy within socialism
social democracy aims to strike a balance by advocating for a mixed market economy where capitalism is regulated to address inequalities through social welfare programs and supports private ownership with a strong emphasis on a well-regulated market
If anything, modern US liberalism conflicts more with your earlier assertion that
Liberalism is basically capitalism
Whereas general liberalism is largely indifferent to economic system, modern US liberalism favors a form of socialism.
You are right, but 99% of the time when people on this site talk bad about liberals, they mean modern liberalism in the US. Not classical or general liberalism.
To be fair to liberals, liberalism is also a system to take care of your neighbors.
Liberalism is basically capitalism with patches. Public option health care, government contractors, food stamps, tuition assistance, bus vouchers, child tax credits.
Socialism is a capitalism replacement. Universal health care, government organizations, free government grocery stores, free education, free public transportation, free day care.
Both groups on the left care about their neighbors.
Nothing you listed there is liberalism. Those are all things liberals fought tooth and nail against. They were forced on liberals who decided it was better to allow them to exist because otherwise we would tear down capitalism which is what Liberals are actually about.
I guess I should specified Modern Liberalism in the United States. Since liberalism means something else outside the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States
It really doesn’t. That’s just something Americans liberals try to sell so people they don’t realize how liberals are always working against their interests.
My comment was absolutely applied to American politics.
I mean you aren’t wrong when it comes to American liberal politicians. That’s just the differences between liberalism and socialism in theory, the actual differences in practice is another story.
I think you should give a definition of what you think a liberal is. You’re just confusing the issue by not saying what you mean.
In short? Capitalists. Liberals are capitalists. The birth of liberalism goes hand in hand with the birth of capitalism. The liberal revolutions were capitalist revolutions. Everything stems from that inescapable fact of history. It’s the one aspect of liberals that dominates everything about them and colors every single decision they make. Everything else is just window dressing that can be thrown away at their leisure. If you want to understand liberals you have to understand that.
So, you’re a communist is what you’re saying. Name one communist country in the history of the world that has lasted longer than 10 years. You introduce greeds, it’s impossible.
You should know that you are making a very ideologically based argument, since as far as anyone can tell the self-labelled communist countries through history were degraded into authoritarian dictatorships immediately, and so mislabeled. Cuba is called communist, and while they too slid immediately into authoritarianism, they call themselves socialist.
You seem to be using the word in a colloquial rather than an academic way.
In addition, consider the massive economic war of the last 150 years, exemplified by the CIA-backed murder of a million or so people in Indonesia, to stamp out so-called communism. Pretty tough to get anything going, between the pressures of violence and lies.
Liberalism isn’t an economic system. It’s a political & moral philosophy from the Enlightenment that holds governments exist for the people & authority is legitimate only when it protects inalienable/fundamental/inherent rights & liberties of individuals. The people have an inherent right to obtain a government with legitimate authority, and when their government lacks or loses legitimacy, the people have a right & duty replace or change that government until it obtains legitimacy.
Liberal governments can & do include some with social market economies (eg, social democracies in Europe).
But I mean an EL5 version is that liberals and socialists on the left both care about their neighbors. The disagreement is just how much of life should be handled by markets vs public/collective systems.
Which liberalism lacks an essential position on, because it’s not an economic philosophy. Liberalism is essentially the position that individual human rights & liberties are fundamental. It can even combine with socialism.
Whatever disagreements you claim these philosophies have may be between particular variants you’re not specifying rather than their most general forms.
Modern liberalism in the US does have a position on economic philosophy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States
Right, and modern US liberalism isn’t general liberalism. Plus, those distinctly modern elements absent from general liberalism of active non-market interventions by the government to protect the market from failure, provide a safety net, provide access to education & healthcare, provide public services to reduce inequality, protect the environment, etc, are social departures from capitalism, are they not? That position aligns better with social democracy
If anything, modern US liberalism conflicts more with your earlier assertion that
Whereas general liberalism is largely indifferent to economic system, modern US liberalism favors a form of socialism.
You are right, but 99% of the time when people on this site talk bad about liberals, they mean modern liberalism in the US. Not classical or general liberalism.